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Thread: Heliolisk discussion thread

  1. #1
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    Default Heliolisk discussion thread


    Typing: Normal / Electric

    Base Stats: 62/55/52/109/94/109

    Notable Moves:

    Thunder
    Thunderbolt
    Surf
    Grass Knot
    Focus Blast
    Dark Pulse
    Volt Switch
    Thunder Wave
    Glare

    Abilities:

    Dry Skin – Heals HP when hit by a Water type attack or when it is raining.
    Sand Veil – Raises evasion during a sandstorm
    Hidden ability: Solar Power – Increases S. Atk at the cost of HP each turn

    Overview:

    One of the few new pokemon introduced in gen 6, Heliolisk is quite a formidable pokemon. It is pretty fast, tying with Durant and outspeeding anything below (think Infernape, the three musketeers, Mismagius, etc) and hitting like a truck in the sun with Solar Power. Being a Normal/anything type always seemed like a burden (to me personally anyway) but with the introduction of Aegislash, Mega Gengar, and Shadow Sneak’s continued rise in use and popularity, Normal typing actually gives it a handy immunity and a chance for a safe switch in on a good prediction. Heliolisk also has access to amazing abilities in the form of Dry Skin, which gives it an added immunity to water attacks and a chance to recover HP, and Solar Power, which increases it’s already good S. Atk and lets it hit even harder.

    Unfortunately, Heliolisk is paper thin and is weak to fighting attacks, meaning Mach Punch negates is speed and is pretty much a guaranteed OHKO. That fact that it’s paper thin also means it’s hard for a Dry Skin set to really capitalize on the HP recovery, though an added immunity, the ability to allow your partner to spam surf, and an added switch in opportunity are nothing to scoff at. Further, base 94 S. Def is pretty decent, allowing Heliolisk to survive Special Attacks, despite its pitiful base 62 HP.


    Possible Sets:

    Heliolisk @ Air Balloon
    Ability: Solar Power
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 S. Atk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Thunderbolt
    - Volt Switch
    - Dark Pulse / Focus Blast
    - Grass Knot / HP Ice / HP Fire

    This is the set I run on my sun team, and the fact that I use it makes me a bit biased, so it might not be the best set there is. Air Ballon is an obvious choice on any electric pokemon not named Eelektross or Rotom, but other options might include Choice Scarf to boost Heliolisk’s speed (to take care of Aerodactyl, Archeops, or any other Physical pokemon that outspeeds Heliolisk), or Choice Specs to hit even harder. Thunderbolt is the main STAB and hits hard on anything that doesn’t resist it, especially after a Solar Power boost. Volt Switch is there for scouting and is pretty self-explanatory. Dark Pulse is a coverage move to hit Ghost types that Heliolisk might switch into. Focus Blast is an option to handle opposing Steel types and to provide a decent move to damage special walls like Blissey, Lickilicky, Snorlax, etc, but the low accuracy means Heliolisk has a high chance to miss, something a paper thin pokemon that relies on its speed to kill threats with doesn’t really want to do. Grass Knot is the only thing preventing any ground type from walling Heliolisk to death and to get rid of Water/Ground types like Swampert, Quagsire, etc. HP Ice and Fire are additional coverage options, the use of which would really depend on what you team needs. HP Fire in the Sun should speak for itself, but if you still need a little more convincing, think Mega Scizor, which is outsped and OHKO by HP Fire, Ferrothorn, Foretress, Mega Abomasnow, and anything else that doesn't resist/is immune to Fire.
    HP Ice is always good for pesky grass types (though HP Fire would serve this purpose better) dragons such as Dragonite, Salamence, and Garchomp and the other usual HP Ice counters.

    This set is really a doubles set as Solar Power means nothing without sun. A good partner for Solar Power Heliolisk is Charizard Y. Since Charizard Y doesn't summon Sun until after the battle has started, you don’t have to worry about underspeeding your opponent’s weather inducer. The main idea is to Mega Evolve on turn 1 to set up the sun, then proceed to destroy everything in sight. Between Charizard’s Fire/Grass/Flying moves and Heliolisk’d Electric/Dark/Grass moves, you have pretty good coverage and the ability to switch around with Volt Switch.

    Heliolisk @ Life Orb
    Ability: Dry Skin
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 S. Atk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Thunder
    - Volt Switch
    - Dark Pulse / Focus Blast
    - Grass Knot / Surf

    Take away Solar Power and add Dry Skin and Heliolisk transforms from a deadly special attacker in the sun to a deadly special attacker in the rain. Life Orb is needed to increase your striking power since this set cannot rely on a Solar Power boost, and in that same vein, a Modest nature can provide a little more punch at the cost of speed, though due to frailty, being outsped by more pokemon is not a good idea. Thunder has 100% accuracy in the rain and after STAB and Life Orb boosts is a monster. Volt Switch is still Volt Switch. Dark Pulse is really just my personal disdain for Focus Blast, but Focus Blast provides better coverage and a stronger move to use. Surf gets a rain boost and hits hard. It’s also a nice little surprise to your opponent who thinks it will just KO you with a ground type. Grass Knot is an option over surf if you don’t want to hit your partner too, or if you want another pokemon to use surf while Dry Skin Heliolisk absorbs the water to recover.

    Since it’s a rain lizard now and no longer a sun bathing lizard just switch the partner to Drizzeltoad and have at it. Smogon covers a set much like this, so for more analysis on a Dry Skin set, click here

    So which do you prefer, the Solar Power-house, or the Dry Skin Surfer? Discuss sets, moves, counters (try to say more than “anything physical” because, while true, this doesn’t really generate discussion ), hindrances, how he fits on a sun team or a rain tem, strengths, weaknesses, etc.

    EDIT: With a huge thanks to Ajduk, who took it upon themselves to do the damage calculations, you can click here to see how Modest Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk stacks up against other OU pokemon.
    Last edited by dewey911p; 16th May 2014 at 7:11 PM.
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  2. #2

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    Heliolisk got a little more hype than necessary, IMO, due largely in part to being the only electric type with access to Dry Skin. Its Speed is good, but it's still got stiff competition from Jolteon, who is not only significantly faster but also boasts slightly better Special Attack and Bulk. As a fast attacker, Jolteon does outclass it to a degree, but Heliolisk does have its niches, such as access to surprise moves for an Electric type such as Surf, Grass Knot, etc. are nice, and the immunities to water and Ghost. Just don't expect it to endure much punishment; even some resisted physical attacks threaten to 2HKO it (CB Scizor's Bullet Punch, Talonflame's Brave Bird, etc.).

    Mega Venusaur hard counters this thing, as it takes pittance from anything it can throw at it. Even Solar Power Heliolisk fails to reliably take down Mega Venusaur, who can put it to sleep, heal off the damage with Giga Drain, or just 2HKO it with Sludge Bomb (after Solar Power damage). Regular Venusaur can work well too, but it risks being 2KO'ed by Solar Power variants if they choose to run HP Ice. Celebi can check it but it has to be wary of Dark Pulse, especially from Solar Power Variants. Garchomp fears the uncommon HP Ice but if it's not carrying it, then Garchomp can check it pretty reliably, obliterating it with Dragon Claw even if an Air Balloon is intact. The number of things that check it is astronomical, as it is 2HKO'ed by almost any strong STAB attack. It may be fast, but it's not quite fast enough, given that base 110's or higher (Mega Lucario, Gengar, etc.) all outspeed it and blow it away. Choice Scarf being as common as it is does Heliolisk no favors as well.

    That said, Heliolisk really wishes it existed back in Gen 5. It would've been right at home in the weather wars of yesteryear due to being able to take advantage of so many different types of weather.
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  3. #3
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    When they first initially released Heliolisk's BST with 120 in SpAtt and Spe, I thought it was going to be OU, but after its stats have been readjusted, I just see it as a extremely underwhelming Pokemon. More of a Raichu with Dry Skin.
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    I see this thing all the time, and I always ask myself why? It's really not that good. It's OHKO'd by Mega Luke, which is one of the most common Pokes in the tier. Another poke that counters it (Luke Checks) is Aegislash, OHKOing with Sacred Sword. Once the tiers even out, I'm seeing this as mid tier RU, Low Tier UU at the highest. Having a water immunity is nice, but that's really all it has. Like KillerDraco said, this thing would have been much better off if he was in last gen, being able to take on 2/3s of entire teams by itself.

  5. #5
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    Heliolisk is good on certain teams that can is built around it's weaknesses. Jolteon isn't good at all, so Heliolisk is better with a choice of 3 great abilities. Heliolisk has Solar Power Dry Skin and Sand Veil which are three amazing abilities. With Solar Power. Heliolisk is a HUGE threat.

    252+ SpA Choice Specs Solar Power Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Wobbuffet in Sun: 321-378 (54.9 - 64.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Heliolisk also has way better coverage to even be compared to Jolteon. It gets Surf and Focus Blast which Jolteon would love to have but doesn't get it.

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    sorry for asking, but why is this guy part normal, does it even get any normal level up moves, oh wait its cause there is only 69 kalos pokemon, and we need more normal types.



    EDIT: sorry for asking, but really heliolisk did not need the normal typing
    Last edited by phanpycross; 19th January 2014 at 2:31 PM. Reason: bad rep

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    Quote Originally Posted by phanpycross View Post
    sorry for asking, but why is this guy part normal, does it even get any normal level up moves, oh wait its cause there is only 69 kalos pokemon, and we need more normal types.



    EDIT: sorry for asking, but really heliolisk did not need the normal typing
    What did that have to do with Competitive Discussion? .-.

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  8. #8
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    I have used a Heliolisk on my Kalos team and so far I think it works quite well as a sun sweeper/revenge killer. Solar Power and Choice Specs + respectable speed makes Heliolisk extremely dangerous as it even has Grass Knot to deal with some Ground-types. Surf would be great but it is hindered in the sun...

    Choice Scarf is another very interesting option and it saved me a lot of times, revenge killing Greninja and Talonflame for example.

    I think that Solar Power is a must, otherwise I don't see Heliolisk having enough power to compensate for its frailness. Dry Skin gives you an immunity but I wouldn't trade the power boost for that.



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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sdio View Post
    What did that have to do with Competitive Discussion? .-.
    just wondering, since a fighting type weakness greatly some pokemon, anyways i find him to be a weaker alakazam, with a weather team niche, i was just wondering from a design standpoint.

  10. #10
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    This one is underrated.
    Here is mine build.

    Heliolisk/ Life Orb
    Modest
    Solar Powered
    252 Spatk/ 252 Spe/ 4 HP

    -Hidden power fire
    -Thunderbolt
    -Focus Blast
    -Volt Switch

    The only thing that you need to do is make sure that sunny day or drought is activated when this bad boy comes out.
    It has 161 speed so, in OU, only Talonflame, Greninja, Gachomp Alakazam outspeed it and only Garchomp and Alakazam can OHKO it.
    Now, here is what this thing can do to pokemon which it can outspeed:

    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mamoswine in Sun: 382-452 (176 - 208.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill in Sun: 346-408 (167.1 - 197.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Donphan in Sun: 191-226 (96.9 - 114.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja in Sun: 385-455 (260.1 - 307.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Hidden Power Fire vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill in Sun: 278-328 (149.4 - 176.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn in Sun: 348-411 (192.2 - 227%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Klefki in Sun: 165-195 (100.6 - 118.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile in Sun: 205-242 (130.5 - 154.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Scizor in Sun: 385-458 (217.5 - 258.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame in Sun: 393-463 (255.1 - 300.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Starmie in Sun: 330-393 (244.4 - 291.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO(can't outspeed, but can OHKO and can't be OHKOed)
    252+ SpA Life Orb Heliolisk Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 234-276 (113 - 133.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mandibuzz in Sun: 307-361 (141.4 - 166.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario in Sun: 257-304 (177.2 - 209.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona in Sun: 140-165 (86.9 - 102.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Blade in Sun: 330-390 (197.6 - 233.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey in Sun: 200-237 (55.2 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Hidden Power Fire vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Breloom in Sun: 294-346 (216.1 - 254.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Charizard in Sun: 330-393 (214.2 - 255.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable in Sun: 113-134 (55.9 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster in Sun: 538-634 (426.9 - 503.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Espeon in Sun: 153-181 (108.5 - 128.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO CAN'T OUTSPEED
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Kangaskhan in Sun: 257-304 (121.2 - 143.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Togekiss in Sun: 195-229 (101.5 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Venusaur in Sun: 192-229 (102.6 - 122.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Trevenant in Sun: 161-190 (83.8 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    EDIT: Adding calculations vs some legendaries.

    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Genesect in Sun: 153-181 (104.7 - 123.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (does not outspeed, genesect has 6.3&% to OHKO with u-turn)
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Jirachi in Sun: 192-229 (109.7 - 130.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO (does not outspeed, Jirachi can't OHKO)
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran in Sun: 179-213 (90.4 - 107.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus in Sun: 175-207 (112.9 - 133.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (does not outspeed, Thundurus gets OHKO if hits with focus blast)

    So, out of 40 OU pokemon, this bad boy can outspeed and OHKO 25 of them and can 2HKO those that he can't outspeed.
    Don't misjudge him, Heliolisk is a monster if you get him working in the sun.
    Last edited by Ajduk; 24th January 2014 at 12:35 AM.
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  11. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ajduk View Post
    It has 161 speed so, in OU, only Talonflame, Greninja, Gachomp Alakazam outspeed it and only Garchomp and Alakazam can OHKO it.
    Not quite. It speed ties with positive speed natured base 95's, so the list of things that outspeed it are considerably higher. Talonflame is also a clean 1HKO with Flare Blitz, Greninja is an easy 2HKO so Heliolisk can't switch into it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajduk View Post
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mamoswine in Sun: 382-452 (176 - 208.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Mamoswine Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heliolisk: 606-714 (227.8 - 268.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Mamoswine Icicle Crash vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heliolisk: 256-303 (96.2 - 113.9%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
    252+ Atk Mamoswine Ice Shard vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heliolisk: 121-144 (45.4 - 54.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Solar Power damage

    Heliolisk has to come in on Stealth Rock or it can't switch in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajduk View Post
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Azumarill in Sun: 346-408 (167.1 - 197.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heliolisk: 301-355 (113.1 - 133.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Huge Power Azumarill Superpower vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heliolisk: 534-630 (200.7 - 236.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Heliolisk needs to come in on a water type attack or it can't switch in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajduk View Post
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Donphan in Sun: 191-226 (96.9 - 114.7%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
    0 Atk Donphan Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heliolisk: 422-500 (158.6 - 187.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Heliolisk needs to come in on Rapid Spin or Stealth Rock or it can't switch in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajduk View Post
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja in Sun: 385-455 (260.1 - 307.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Heliolisk: 172-203 (64.6 - 76.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Solar Power damage
    252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Heliolisk: 153-181 (57.5 - 68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Solar Power damage
    0- Atk Life Orb Protean Greninja U-turn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heliolisk: 142-169 (53.3 - 63.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Solar Power damage
    252 SpA Life Orb Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Heliolisk in Sun: 103-122 (38.7 - 45.8%) -- 14.5% chance to 2HKO after Solar Power damage

    2HKO'd by pretty much everything (even Hydro Pump when you consider Life Orb recoil too), so given Greninja outspeeds, Heliolisk can't switch in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajduk View Post
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Hidden Power Fire vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Excadrill in Sun: 278-328 (149.4 - 176.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Mold Breaker Excadrill Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heliolisk: 624-734 (234.5 - 275.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Heliolisk has to take a risk to switch in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajduk View Post
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Ferrothorn in Sun: 348-411 (192.2 - 227%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    4 Atk Ferrothorn Power Whip vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heliolisk: 208-246 (78.1 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Solar Power damage

    I'll give you this one. To be fair though, pretty much everything 1HKOs Ferrothorn with HP Fire... especially in sun. Though it runs the risk of being KO'ed by the combination of Solar Power and Life Orb recoil after a Power Whip.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajduk View Post
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Klefki in Sun: 165-195 (100.6 - 118.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    Yeah I'll give you this one. Klefki's job is just to set up screens anyway though so eh. It's not a huge threat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajduk View Post
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Mawile in Sun: 205-242 (130.5 - 154.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Play Rough vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heliolisk: 468-552 (175.9 - 207.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Huge Power Mega Mawile Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heliolisk: 277-327 (104.1 - 122.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    It can't switch into Play Rough, and it's 1HKO'd by Sucker Punch so it gets screwed regardless.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajduk View Post
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Scizor in Sun: 385-458 (217.5 - 258.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Mega Scizor U-turn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heliolisk: 235-277 (88.3 - 104.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO

    25% chance to 1HKO with U-Turn so switching in can be risky. Like Ferrothorn though, being able to KO something 4x weak to fire (in sun no less) is not unique to Heliolisk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajduk View Post
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Talonflame in Sun: 393-463 (255.1 - 300.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heliolisk: 264-312 (99.2 - 117.2%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

    It can't switch in, and Talonflame is going to kill it regardless due to outspeeding it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajduk View Post
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Starmie in Sun: 330-393 (244.4 - 291.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO(can't outspeed, but can OHKO and can't be OHKOed)
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Surf vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Heliolisk: 168-199 (63.1 - 74.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Starmie Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Heliolisk: 112-133 (42.1 - 50%) -- 88.3% chance to 2HKO after Solar Power damage

    It runs a risk by switching in due to the 2HKOs and outspeeding.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajduk View Post
    252+ SpA Life Orb Heliolisk Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 234-276 (113 - 133.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Tyranitar Stone Edge vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heliolisk: 309-364 (116.1 - 136.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Tyranitar Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heliolisk: 247-292 (92.8 - 109.7%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO

    It runs a big risk switching in. Also, Scarf Tyranitar says hi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajduk View Post
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mandibuzz in Sun: 307-361 (141.4 - 166.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    This one's kind of a given though Heliolisk doesn't like getting its Life Orb knocked off on the switch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajduk View Post
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Lucario in Sun: 257-304 (177.2 - 209.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Lucario Close Combat vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heliolisk: 588-692 (221 - 260.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252 Atk Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heliolisk: 131-155 (49.2 - 58.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Solar Power damage

    And of course...

    252 Atk Mega Lucario Crunch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heliolisk: 159-188 (59.7 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Solar Power damage

    252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Vacuum Wave vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Heliolisk: 196-232 (73.6 - 87.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Solar Power damage

    252 Atk Mega Lucario Extreme Speed vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heliolisk: 159-188 (59.7 - 70.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Solar Power damage

    Switching into Lucario/Mega Lucario is a daunting prospect for Heliolisk which runs a huge risk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajduk View Post
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Volcarona in Sun: 140-165 (86.9 - 102.4%) -- 18.8% chance to OHKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Volcarona Bug Buzz vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Heliolisk: 208-246 (78.1 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 SpA Volcarona Fiery Dance vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Heliolisk in Sun: 213-252 (80 - 94.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Solar Power damage

    Heliolisk can't switch into Timid Volcarona under any circumstances since it outspeeds. It also has problems with Modest variants who Quiver Dance on the switch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajduk View Post
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Blade in Sun: 330-390 (197.6 - 233.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Aegislash-Blade Sacred Sword vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heliolisk: 404-476 (151.8 - 178.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    While it can switch into the ghost type attacks, Sacred Sword will murder it, making it a risk. Plus, we could also consider...

    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield in Sun: 265-312 (81.7 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    So Aegislash can, albeit unreliably, revenge kill it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajduk View Post
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Blissey in Sun: 200-237 (55.2 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    I'll give you this one since Blissey doesn't threaten it back, although a 2HKO with Focus Blast isn't quite the guarantee.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajduk View Post
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Hidden Power Fire vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Breloom in Sun: 294-346 (216.1 - 254.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heliolisk: 432-510 (162.4 - 191.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    It can't switch in. Also, priority says hi.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajduk View Post
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Charizard in Sun: 330-393 (214.2 - 255.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 SpA Charizard Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Heliolisk in Sun: 252-297 (94.7 - 111.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO

    Timid Charizard outspeeds, so it can't switch in. Plus, if we consider it Mega Evolving...

    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mega Charizard X in Sun: 160-187 (53.6 - 62.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Flare Blitz vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heliolisk in Sun: 645-760 (242.4 - 285.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Tough Claws Mega Charizard X Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heliolisk: 288-339 (108.2 - 127.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Mega Charizard X Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heliolisk: 368-434 (138.3 - 163.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Fire Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Heliolisk in Sun: 331-391 (124.4 - 146.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    ...Not exactly the most reliable thing in the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajduk View Post
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Clefable in Sun: 113-134 (55.9 - 66.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
    That one I'll give you too, although Clefable's not the hardest thing to 2HKO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajduk View Post
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Cloyster in Sun: 538-634 (426.9 - 503.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Cloyster Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heliolisk: 305-365 (114.6 - 137.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Cloyster Rock Blast (5 hits) vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heliolisk: 205-245 (77 - 92.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Solar Power damage

    Runs a risk switching in, but yeah, it'll fry Cloyster. Although most Special Attacks can 1HKO Cloyster without much difficulty.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajduk View Post
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Espeon in Sun: 153-181 (108.5 - 128.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO CAN'T OUTSPEED
    252 SpA Espeon Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heliolisk: 220-261 (82.7 - 98.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Solar Power damage

    ...Support Espeon is more common, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajduk View Post
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Kangaskhan in Sun: 257-304 (121.2 - 143.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Power-Up Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heliolisk: 216-255 (81.2 - 95.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Solar Power damage
    252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heliolisk: 537-633 (201.8 - 237.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heliolisk: 537-633 (201.8 - 237.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Sucker Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heliolisk: 214-253 (80.4 - 95.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Solar Power damage

    Mega Kanga's banned so not sure why we're discussing it, but Heliolisk can't switch into it period, Jolly Kanga outspeeds, and Adamant Kanga says hello with Sucker Punch.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajduk View Post
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Togekiss in Sun: 195-229 (101.5 - 119.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    That one I'll give you too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajduk View Post
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Venusaur in Sun: 192-229 (102.6 - 122.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ SpA Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Heliolisk: 142-168 (53.3 - 63.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Solar Power damage
    0 Atk Venusaur Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heliolisk: 206-244 (77.4 - 91.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Solar Power damage

    Venusaur itself isn't very threatening to Heliolisk. And yet...

    252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Giga Drain vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Heliolisk: 136-162 (51.1 - 60.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Solar Power damage
    252+ SpA Mega Venusaur Sludge Bomb vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Heliolisk: 163-193 (61.2 - 72.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Solar Power damage
    0 Atk Mega Venusaur Earthquake vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heliolisk: 242-286 (90.9 - 107.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Thick Fat Mega Venusaur in Sun: 161-190 (44.2 - 52.1%) -- 15.2% chance to 2HKO

    Heliolisk is pretty much hard countered by Mega Venusaur. Even if it doesn't attack, defensive Mega Venusaur it can actually stall it out with Synthesis/Leech Seed. Heliolisk will never want to switch into any Mega Venusaur.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajduk View Post
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Trevenant in Sun: 161-190 (83.8 - 98.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    Trevenant I'll give you too, mostly since I'm not fond of it. Heh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajduk View Post
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Genesect in Sun: 153-181 (104.7 - 123.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO (does not outspeed, genesect has 6.3&% to OHKO with u-turn)
    252 SpA Genesect Flamethrower vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Heliolisk in Sun: 147-174 (55.2 - 65.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Solar Power damage
    +1 4 Atk Genesect U-turn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heliolisk: 223-264 (83.8 - 99.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Solar Power damage (Download would be the +1 btw)

    That's your standard Scarf Genesect, which Heliolisk can't switch into. Life Orb Genesect would look something like...

    +1 4 Atk Life Orb Genesect U-turn vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heliolisk: 290-343 (109 - 128.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Genesect Flamethrower vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Heliolisk in Sun: 191-226 (71.8 - 84.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Solar Power damage

    It's a risky endeavor to switch in.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajduk View Post
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Jirachi in Sun: 192-229 (109.7 - 130.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO (does not outspeed, Jirachi can't OHKO)
    252 Atk Jirachi Fire Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heliolisk in Sun: 173-204 (65 - 76.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Solar Power damage
    252 Atk Jirachi Ice Punch vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Heliolisk: 115-136 (43.2 - 51.1%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Solar Power damage

    Jirachi I'll give you too, although Heliolisk has to be wary of Fire Punch 2HKO'ing so the switch can have a risk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajduk View Post
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Heatran in Sun: 179-213 (90.4 - 107.5%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
    4 SpA Heatran Lava Plume vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Heliolisk in Sun: 172-204 (64.6 - 76.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Solar Power damage
    4 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Heliolisk: 172-204 (64.6 - 76.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Solar Power damage

    Heatran I'll give you too. Though Scarf Heatran gives it trouble after LO/Solar Power.

    252 SpA Heatran Earth Power vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Heliolisk: 208-246 (78.1 - 92.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Solar Power damage

    Kamikazee-

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajduk View Post
    252+ SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Thunderbolt vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Thundurus in Sun: 175-207 (112.9 - 133.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO (does not outspeed, Thundurus gets OHKO if hits with focus blast)
    252 SpA Thundurus Focus Blast vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Heliolisk: 270-318 (101.5 - 119.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Yep. Heliolisk runs a HUGE risk trying to switch in and gets outsped so it's not a good idea unless as a last resort or if you're feeling lucky.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ajduk View Post
    Don't misjudge him, Heliolisk is a monster if you get him working in the sun.
    No one denies that Solar Power Life Orb Heliolisk has a lot of power. The complaint has never been that it lacks power; The main complaint with Heliolisk is that it has the defense of a wet paper bag, not to mention that between Life Orb and Solar Power's recoil effects, it'll end up killing itself on most of the things that can 2HKO it. It desperately needs either a slow U-Turn or to follow something that was already KO'ed, because its ability to switch in is very limited, and it can't take a hit to save its life.

    Again, I'm not denying Heliolisk's power. But you can't just look at the raw damage it deals to things; this makes it a check to most of the things mentioned, not a counter. Plus, it needs that Sun Support or it runs into issues of not being powerful enough. Most things mentioned can't switch into Heliolisk in Sun, but then again, Heliolisk can't switch into them either. And that's the reason Heliolisk is used as much (or perhaps as little would be more appropriate) as it is.
    Last edited by KillerDraco; 24th January 2014 at 2:50 AM.
    Competitive/IGRMT Mod and one of the writers for the PotW.

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  12. #12
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    Keep in mind Azelf with his 70/70/70 defenses was the most used Pokemon of DPPt era OU (or maybe 2nd to Heatran, I forget exactly). Neither offensive nor defensive prowess are be-all end-alls, there are other factors that must be taken into account. In Azelf's case it was 125/125/115 offensive stats, a great offensive/support movepool, and the ability to stop 99% of the metagame from getting its hazards down while putting up hazards of its own.

    Now I'm not saying Heliolisk will ever come close to top usage, but he does have a niche on weather teams as a rather unpredictable and frighteningly strong attacker. I look at him and I see a revengekiller, since his frailty prevents him from switching directly into most opponents. He can and will threaten a good swath of the metagame with his Solar Power boosted attacks, and his Speed isn't too poor either.

    He does require team support. Obviously he wants some Sun on his team, so a Sunny Day / Drought user or two is a must. Between Life Orb and Solar Power recoil, he'll be taking a lot of damage and cannot afford to take more damage from hazards. Therefore a spinner is also a must. Unfortunately after Mega Gengar was banned he lost one of his favourite partners. Mega Gengar switches into Mach Punches with no problems, and traps an eliminates troublesome Fighting types. Gothitelle works as a poor man's Gengar, and in addition Gothitelle will likely be in a similar tier as Heliolisk.

    That's just my two cents.


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  13. #13
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    I taught mine Dark Pulse so Golurks can eat dust. It's a speedy Pokémon, and has a fairy decent typing (Immune to Ghosts and to being Paralyzed this generation) but unfortunately is victim to two of the Deadly 3 - Fighting and Ground. I still use Dry Skin Heliosk occasionally, if I feel like doing something different. I also run it with Parabolic Charge, and if I were to make a team surrounding it, I would put a few Ground types and a few Telepathic Pokémon with it to avoid collateral damage from Parabolic Charge, as well as giving Heliosk an Air Balloon so you can dole out Earthquakes without burying the lizard.
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  14. #14
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    Heliolisk should be good at lower tiers. 109 SpA and Spe and a decent movepool is not that bad.

    Saddened at the fact that this lizard wasn't in 5th Gen. The ultimate weather abuser, would be a definite OU in BW OU.

  15. #15
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    For me, heliolisk is a pokemon who sorta "missed his mark" on creation. If it had existed last generation, when permanent weather was around, it would have easily been top-tier OU and the perfect thing for and against weather-based teams. Also, you may want to add HP-fire as an option on the sun set, as with weather up it can OHKO ferrothorn/scizor regardless of investment and can also hit many of the grass types who would otherwise wall that set.

    252 SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Hidden Power Fire vs. 220 HP / 0 SpD Celebi in Sun: 338-400 (85.3 - 101%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Ferrothorn in Sun: 442-520 (125.5 - 147.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Solar Power Heliolisk Hidden Power Fire vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Mega Scizor in Sun: 489-577 (142.1 - 167.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
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  16. #16
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    Imo, a quite underrated Pokemon. I've been using it with great success ever since Gen 6 came out due to its awesome SpAtk stat and Solar Power ability.

    I surprise quite a few people with my set in battles:
    Solar power, timid (252 sp atk & speed, 4 hp)
    [Choice scarf]
    Volt switch
    Focus blast
    Dark pulse
    Hyper beam

    It's a great volt switcher and outright ohkos talonflame & greninja, which on my team are some of my greatest weaknesses, with volt switch.
    The scarf catches many of my opponents off guard, it just about survives a brave bird, and while it's easily ko'ed by fighting moves I've found that its normal type makes for good switch ins on a shadow sneak from aegislash. The hyper beam might seem gimmicky, but when yzard's drought is in play + stab, hyper beam makes for a GREAT ohko kamikaze attack on most pokemon.

    Like I said, it's not your everyday set but it's served me very well on my team so far.
    Last edited by cryuel; 25th April 2014 at 10:34 AM.

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