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Thread: Community POTW #011

  1. #26
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    I'll sound poetic at first though. Then I'll get to detail.

    In the first three generations, early bird pokemon were the dumps in the extreme competitive tongue of pokemon players desiring no more, no less but winning and never losing a fight. Pidgeot, Fearow, and Swellow, with Unova's Unfezzant on 5th gen, were dumped by smogon to NU no thanks to their lackluster performance. Usually, a casual player who holds those pokemon dearly would give up on them once they experienced the harsh realities of Competitive battling.

    But...

    Two early bird pokemon from two generations defied Smogon's and every winner greedy players. We had Staraptor who first came in OU (then Borderline as of today) who wields mighty Brave Birds, Close Combats, and Double Edges capable of busting through walls like an atomic bomb all thanks to the support of its Reckless ability. Alongside him is the newcomer, Priority Elite early bird companion named Talonflame. Raised by Usain Bolt the Thundurus, with mighty Gale Wings putting names in every enemy it strikes, Extrerme Speed found itself a new contender to compete: priority Brave Birds that puts bullet punchers to shame. +1 priority in ALL FLYING MOVES made Talonflame defy Smogon too just how staraptor Defied Smogon as well two generations ago.

    Hand in hand, the wall buster Staraptor with the Lighting speed wings Talonflame join forces to rule the skies with the majestic cleric Togekiss keeping Kalos and Sinnoh out of danger from enemies alike.

    Enough of the literature of awesomeness.

    So, instead of repeating what all of you just said, this time, I felt like weighing my own opinions on Brave Bird vs Acrobatics.

    Acrobatics:
    Pros and Cons:
    -A strong one shot attack with flying gem.
    -Even if there's no item left after using the gem, the strength is not that impressive on the next hit
    -A boosting move is somewhat a necessity to make up for the move's low power after the gem's used (mostly swords dance

    Brave Bird:
    Pros and Cons:
    -More initial attacking power fitting for its badass animation
    -the recoil syndrome is something staraptor also has (even if talonflame has the leftovers)
    -with roost to keep you healed after the recoil is a double edge sword in the decision making factor: stay in or risk losing talonflame

    For me, Brave bird is somewhat more rewarding despite the risks that it has in the form of recoil. Acrobatics has even higher risks in terms of having crucial KOs to consider if using swords dance.
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  2. #27
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    High Defense, Flying Resistance, Pressure, and/or changing Gale Wings are the soup du jour for facing Talonflame. Mega-Aggron, Tyranitar, Cofagrigus, Dusknoir, Carracosta, Golem, Eviolite-clops, Relicanth, Rhyperior, Gigalith, and Omastar have huge Defense and ways of dealing with Talonflame. Plus, they don't care about that Priority Tauros-crap.

    One option for helping Talonflame is a Baton Passed Substitute. It may be fragile on defenses, but a high-HP Substitute making you able to survive a non-Multi-hit Move (possibly 2) gives you an extra turn (possibly 2) to deal damage with prioritized impunity.
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  3. #28
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    Overview
    Talonflame's only good stats is Speed, 81 Attack doesn't seem good, but what makes it shine is because of its ability Gale Wings.

    Positive
    -Having a Priority Brave Bird is really nice, 120 Base Power + a Priority, it'sjust awesome.
    -Even without its Godly ability, it is still fast, allowing it to outspeed a lot of Steel Type Pokemon and can use Flare Blitz instead.
    -Having lots of good Flying Type move that can take advantage of Gale Wings.
    -Can kill Blaziken and sweepers.
    -Its Special Attack is nearly as much as its Attack allowing it to use a Surprising Special Move.
    -Cannot be burn.

    Negative
    -Even as a Physical Attacker, its Attack is low compare to other Physical Attacker.
    -Don't expect it to survive much with that Low HP, Defense and Sp. Def.
    -Any Rock Type said Good Bye to Talonflame except if it has low HP.
    -Stealth Rock eats up 50% of its health, that's not nice.

    Abilities
    Flame Body: Not a bad ability and can surprise some people if they think you are Gale Wings and use Extreme Speed to outspeed it while you end up burning it, but it does not worth it to waste your nice ability.
    Gale Wings: THIS is what makes Talonflame good, without it, it is just a ordinary Pokemon with low Stats. Makes all those Flying move have a priority of 1. Only Extreme Speed outspeeds it.

    Moveset

    This is Choice Talonflame
    Item: Choice Band
    Nature: Adamant
    Ability: Gale Wings
    EVs: 252 Attack/ 252 Speed or HP/ 4 Speed or HP or 252 Attack/ 132 Speed/ 124 HP
    Moveset
    Brave Bird
    Flare Blitz
    Steel Wing
    U-Turn

    This set is used to OHKO sweeper or finish off your opponent with the following move, usually you would use Brave Bird as it outspeed every sweeper that doesn't use Priority. Brave Bird and Flare Blitz are Talonflame's strongest STAB while Steel wing can finish off Rock Type Pokemon or U-Turn to escape. The EVs really depend on what you prefer,the higher HP EVs you have, the more Brave Bird you can use, the higher Speed you have, the more chance you win in a Talonflame vs Talonflame Battle

    THIS IS the sweeper Talonflame
    Item: Life Orb/ Leftover
    Nature: Adamant
    Ability: Gale Wings
    EVs: 252 Attack/ 252 Speed or HP/ 4 Speed or HP or 252 Attack/ 132 Speed/ 124 HP
    Moveset
    Brave Bird
    Flare Blitz
    Sword Dance/ Bulk Up
    Roost/ U-Turn

    Brave Bird and Flare Blitz are for STAB. Sword Dance and Bulk Up allow it to setup if your opponent switch, Sword Dance gains Attack by 2 stages while Bulk Up gains both Attack and Defense allowing it to survive some Physical hit. Roost can heal it from Recoil Damage while U-Turn allows it to escape from Tyranitar. Life Orb raises its attack while Leftover can heal it.

    Other Options:
    Solar Beam + Power Herb: This can surprise a lot of Rock and Ground Type Pokemon and Barabarcle that wants to setup on it or kill it. The downside is it can only be use once and you need to waste a item slot for it. If you are going to use this, its nature should be Lonely instead

    Acrobatics: Can be use alongside Flying Gem if you hate Brave Bird's recoil, but Flying Gem is not available yet, so it won't work

    Overheat and Flamethrower: This can unexpected those Physical Wall like Mega Aggron and Steelix. Again you need to use Lonely instead.

    Natural Gift + A Berry: Natural Gift can easily surprise those Heatran by using Apicot Berry or surprise Tyranitar by using Salac Berry or surprise Barabarcle by using Liechi Berry or surprise anything with any berry. Again it can only be use once and you need to lose an item for it.

    Tailwind: You can use Tailwind to support your team before you die

    Taunt: Can allow it to stop Pokemon that wants to setup on Talonflame

    Partner: The best partner for Talonflame is Dugtrio, because it can wall most Attack Talonflame is weak to (except Water Type) and KO any of Talonflame weakness except for that OU Rotom-W

    Double and Triple Battle option
    It's good at setting up Tailwind and can also protect your teammate from priority move using Quick Guard.

    Counters
    Stealth Rock cuts 50% of its HP. Any Rock Pokemon that can survive a Choice Band Steel Wing counters it. Rotom Wash is however the best Counter, Brave Bird can hurts it a little bit and it gets OHKO by a Hydro Pump. If you paralyze a Talonflame, your other Talonflame can easily outspeed your opponent Talonflame. Toxic will drain its HP real quick.

    Overall Talonflame can be a nice Pokemon in your team to kill Sweepers, but if other Flying type Pokemon that isn't Pidgeot, Farfetched'd and other Terrible Flying Type Pokemon gets Gale Wings(especially Archeops), nobody would use Talonflame.
    Last edited by chap196; 6th January 2014 at 1:15 PM.

  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mestorn View Post
    Typing: Fire-Flying is an ok typing. 6 resistances, two of them being quad doesn’t hurt, plus one immunity. The trade off doesn’t seem so bad, having only 2 weaknesses.

    Talonflame is weak against 3 types, not 2 [eletric, water and rock]

  5. #30
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    talonflame only ever needs 172 speed EVs with adamant nature to outspeed + base 100 such as mega-khangskhan and make its sucker punch fail. it also allows it speed jump liepard and all other prankster users and quick guard against them (doubles only I guess)

    also steel wing serves no purpose and even choice band talonflame should be running tailwind over it as it provides more utility. STAB brave bird does more damage than super effective steel wing. talonflame should also be using choice band as it hits some significant OHKO and 2HKO breakpoints that life orb does not, most notabily it OHKOs mega charizard Y, whereas life orb does not.
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  6. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Limakun View Post
    Talonflame is weak against 3 types, not 2 [eletric, water and rock]
    Thanks for catching me. Updated the post.
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  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by KillerDraco View Post
    252+ Atk Talonflame Flare Blitz vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Ferrothorn: 372-444 (105.6 - 126.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    As it turns out, it can easily 1HKO even max defense Ferrothorn, even with Leftovers as its item. Most Ferrothorn don't run this spread, either.

    Oh. Well then. Guess I just don't remember my matches well enough. Either that, or they weren't running max atk for some strange reason. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, what with the 4x weakness, but Talonflame's attack isn't too incredible, so that does kind of surprise me.

    Either way, it's a good counter-lead to Ferrothorn, forcing a switch instead of being able to lay entry hazards.

  8. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by MythrilZenith View Post
    Oh. Well then. Guess I just don't remember my matches well enough. Either that, or they weren't running max atk for some strange reason. I guess I shouldn't be surprised, what with the 4x weakness, but Talonflame's attack isn't too incredible, so that does kind of surprise me.

    Either way, it's a good counter-lead to Ferrothorn, forcing a switch instead of being able to lay entry hazards.
    Then again, the turn you switch to Talonflame, Ferrothorn's probably setting down a hazard that turn. Unless, as you said, your leading with Talonflame. Then that's different.

    Also, I can't help but laugh at the fact that Talonflame's base stat total is 499. 1 point away from 500 stat total. Shame, because from personal experience, 1 more point to special defense would have helped a lot.
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  9. #34
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    Talonflame@Sharp Beak
    EVS: 252 Atk; 252 Spd; 4 HP
    Nature: Adamant
    Trait: Gale Wings
    - Brave Bird
    - Flare Blitz
    - Roost
    - Swords Dance

    Sharp Beak provides a nice oomph to your flying type moves without any recoil (Talonflame already has enough in the forms of Brave Bird and Flare Blitz). Roost is to heal off any damage/recoil if you ever have the chance, and SD is just to threaten your opponents. The EVS are so you can outspeed standard Talonflame which can come in useful.
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  10. #35
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    Loved the 4th gen birdy Staraptor
    Love the 6th gen birdy Talonflame

    Already impressive speed plus an ability that gives priority to Flying-type moves makes this one scary bird. However, Fire-Flying typing is what killed Charizard and it takes 50% damage from Stealth Rock.

    Don't forget the cool design.

    Talonflame @ Life Orb/Leftovers
    Nature: Adamant
    EVs: 252 Attack / 252 Speed/ 4 HP
    Ability: Gale Wings
    Brave Bird
    Flare Blitz
    Roost
    U-turn/Steel Wing

    My theory is always hit first and hit hard. This set does that. Talonflame won't be staying around long unless you are getting in the first hit. Brave Bird and Flare Blitz are necessary for the hit hard part. Roost lets you (maybe) heal off some recoil and lose the Flying-type for a turn. U-turn allows for scouting. I am not a fan of Steel Wing, but it is an option. The item depends on whether you want to hit harder or try and keep Talonflame around longer.

    Other Options: Gets Tailwind and Quick Guard, could be useful for doubles/triples.

  11. #36
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    I enjoy using the set above. However, I would swap the Life Orb for either Sitrus Berry, Shell Bell or Leftovers. Sitrus Berry can provide a decent HP healing method when you are in a pinch. Shell Bell allows you to regain some of the recoil damage and Leftovers can readily provide extra HP to keep it from dying of recoil quickly.

  12. #37
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    In terms of counters, I have found that there are several ways to get around Talonflame. Heatran kitted out with Stealth Rock and Roar can phaze it all day, as well as being there to take care of troublesome Charizard. In addition, Mandibuzz is bulky enough to shrug him off, with either Foul Play or Whirlwind to take care of Swords Dance. Assault Vest Eelektross can also take a hit, although chances are that hit will be U-Turn. Eviolite Dusclops is also really good as it blocks Rapid Spinners and spreads burn with Will 'o Wisp.

    Basically, Stealth Rock is the best way of disposing of a Talonflame, combined with bulky phazers to force switches.

    I haven't tested it, but perhaps something like Extremespeed Dragonite would be an effective counter also?

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Henge Guardian View Post
    In terms of counters, I have found that there are several ways to get around Talonflame. Heatran kitted out with Stealth Rock and Roar can phaze it all day, as well as being there to take care of troublesome Charizard. In addition, Mandibuzz is bulky enough to shrug him off, with either Foul Play or Whirlwind to take care of Swords Dance. Assault Vest Eelektross can also take a hit, although chances are that hit will be U-Turn. Eviolite Dusclops is also really good as it blocks Rapid Spinners and spreads burn with Will 'o Wisp.

    Basically, Stealth Rock is the best way of disposing of a Talonflame, combined with bulky phazers to force switches.

    I haven't tested it, but perhaps something like Extremespeed Dragonite would be an effective counter also?
    Many of those things are not counters, but rather, checks. Mandibuzz is the most reliable of the three you mentioned, because its physically bulky variants are only 2HKO'ed (after Stealth Rock) by a +2 or Choice Band Talonflame, so if it hasn't SD'ed and doesn't have a Choice Band it can phase or Foul Play it. That said if Mandibuzz is specially defensive, it risks being 2HKO'ed by even an unboosted Talonflame with Lefties (after Stealth Rock).

    Eelektross is cleanly 2HKO'ed by even an unboosted Flare Blitz, and Choice Band Talonflame has a 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock with Flare Blitz. Its low speed doesn't do it any favors, so you have to be careful with that one.

    Dragonite has to be rid of Stealth Rock to be able to check Talonflame, because without Multiscale it risks being 2HKO'ed or even 1HKO'ed on the switch by a CB or +2 Brave Bird. Meanwhile an unboosted ExtremeSpeed only has a 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock.

    They can stop Talonflame, but given that there is some risk to them, they'd be checks rather than counters. Counters would be more like Heatran, Tyranitar, and Rotom-W, who have little to fear outside of uncommon niche sets (barring letting a Talonflame boost to +4 or something).
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  14. #39
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    THA KAMIKAZE FRUIT FLY
    Talonflame @ Choice Band
    Gale Wings & Jolly
    252 Attack / 252 Speed
    ~ Brave Bird
    ~ Filler/ Flare Blitz
    ~ Filler/ U-turn
    ~ Filler/ Return

    I remember during the first few weeks of OU on Showdown that Flamey-T was a bro for me, being able to massacre unprepared teams in the early days while also being an insane revenge killer. A monkey could pull off this set, just use Brave Bird. Everything else is effectively filler - with the rare exception of a switch in on a Ferrothorn. Now, this set gets it's name from the OU chat room on Showdown. One of the regulars there was bashing on Talonflame users and I decided to troll him about my God-like Flamey-T, the end result? Fruit flys can dent glass better than Talonflame can dent teams. I use Jolly over Adamant to help with speed against other Talonflames.

    Bulky da Rooster
    Talonflame @ Leftovers
    Gale Wings & Adamant
    252 HP / 188 Attack / 64 Speed
    ~ Brave Bird
    ~ Roost
    ~ Bulk Up / Swords Dance
    ~ Steel Wing

    Ok, we've all heard of the damn Gale Wings + Brave Bird. It works! However, people get tunnel vision and only think his ability works with Brave Bird and Acrobatics. NOPE. Roost (and Tailwind) get priority also! Turn that 4x super effective Stone Edge from a Banded Rhyperior into only a measly 2x, you're sure to survive - pffft... Anyways, try and set-up with either Bulk Up or Swords Dance - your choice - and then smash with Brave Bird or Steel Wing and Roost when you need to.

    Counters
    Anything defensive physically and that can resist it's two main STAB moves work wonders, i.e. Rotom-W, Kabutops, Gliscor, Tyranitar, Carracosta, Archeops, Tyranitrum, Swampert, Quagsire, etc.

    Partners
    Anything that can take Water, Rock and Electricity moves with ease such as Tangrowth or Roserade/ Roselia with Eviolite. Also, spinners are MANDATORY
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  15. #40
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    Flame Body w/ Leftovers/Scope Lens/Assault Vest
    Naďve/Hasty/Jolly w/ 252 Speed, 252 Attack, 6 HP
    Flare Blitz/Flame Charge
    Brave Bird
    Steel Wing
    U-Turn

    Countering
    Pokémon with Water/Electric/Rock-type moves like Gigalith, Tyranitar, Dragonite, Garchomp, Feraligatr, Barbaracle, Gorebyss, Heat/Wash Rotom, or Slowbro.
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