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You could, but without HP Ground, you go from being able to lure in and cripple or KO even the bulkiest of Heatran to being completely helpless. You need HP Ground if you want to actually act as a usable lure, which can clear the way for something like Earthquake-less DD Charizard X or something once Heatran is weakened. Keep in mind that that 3HKO is just for specially defensive Heatran, the worst case scenario. Max HP versions lose up to a little over 2/3 of their health, while 4/0 variants are taking upwards of 83% damage. Seeing as how Charizard X's +1 Dragon Claw is doing 34% min to max HP variants and 41% min to 4/0 sets, that chunk of damage from HP Ground can easily facilitate a sweep, which Talonflame would be unable to do otherwise.
Also, Ancient Power isn't all that common on Heatran. Of the ones that do use it, they tend to be offensive variants, which are cleanly 2HKOed on the switch with no chance of retaliation.
Last edited by jesusfreak94; 27th March 2014 at 2:54 AM.
I find Talonflame is simply to frail to last out 4 hits. If your fighting a Heatran its likely to KO you before you get a third attack off. I just find Talonflame to be to frail. However for the most common counters, like Bulky water types and Ttar, I carry Natural gift on my Talonflame. I send it out on a Pokémon that will switch out, set up a Sword dance and then OHKO the Ttar or water type with the grass powered Natural Gift. You can also change the berry to a fighting type one to take out Heatran.
Underrated Pokémon thought would be Persian. Its got a surprising amount of power behind it. Ok its not going to OHKO anything, but it can rack up the damage.
Persian - Life orb
- Fake out
Ok its not the most powerful Pokémon out there. You send it out first turn, fake out and then U-turn. It hits 183 speed fully invested at lvl 50. If your battling a wall you can taunt it after your fake out to cripple it also.
While your not likely to get many kills, the damage you do build up. You can do about 25% damage in the first two turns and then switch to an appropriate counter.
I know there are probably other Pokémon that can do this, but I don't think many are boosted by Technician
This is something that I want to test on paper he is the perfect counter to both Mega Charizard Y and Talonflame he as a Water Rock typing and sports a 100 base HP and a 130 def, and that poke is Relicanth. I have come up with a couple of ways to use him (that is if I am using Choice Scarf the right way) well with that said here they are
Relicanth @ Assault Vest
252HP / 252 Def / 4 SpDef
Relicanth @ Choice Scarf
252 HP/ 4 Def/ 252 Spd
same as the other move set
Now if I understand Choice Scraf right (just really getting into battleing so correct me if I am wrong) it increases your speed by 50% since it doesn't say base I assume it to increase the final number by 50% and if that is the case then this allows him to out speed Mega Charizard Y. Now you could use the top set as well you would just need to have a light screen set up to make sure that he survies if the charizard has solar beam. Talonflame on the other hand you can't outspeed unless they gave him no speed EV's but who would do that. Nothing that Talonflame has really hurts him so that top set can be ran with really no wories
Last edited by MetagrossMasta; 29th March 2014 at 3:45 PM.
Assault Vest is still 1HKO'd about 70% of the time with Solarbeam (a guaranteed 1HKO if Stealth Rock is up), so it can't switch in, and it doesn't come anywhere close to outspeeding so it gets wiped off the face of the earth.
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Relicanth: 384-452 (95 - 111.8%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
Same deal with Scarf. It can't switch in on Solarbeam, but it can outspeed and revenge kill, making it a check.
Relicanth can deal with Talonflame pretty well though, but this is true of pretty much all rock types. Although if you're using Scarf, you want max Attack rather than HP.
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Relicanth through Light Screen: 192-226 (47.5 - 55.9%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Mega Charizard Y Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Relicanth through Light Screen: 192-226 (47.5 - 55.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
...Even with Light Screen, Relicanth is 2HKO'd and outsped, so it can't reliably switch into Mega Zard Y. So while you could account for Talonflame with Relicanth, it's by no means a reliable answer to Mega Charizard Y. Something like Assault Vest Goodra would better deal with it if you're having trouble with the sun-summoning Dragon.
Although this sort of thing might be more at home in the team building help thread if you're looking to build a team around Mega Heracross. But, oh well.
Last edited by KillerDraco; 29th March 2014 at 5:07 PM. Reason: Linked the Team Building Help thread for your convenience
Hmm looking at it on the Pokémon calculator I can see just how devastating it can be. After a sword dance my Talonflame can OHKO a ttar with natural gift. But having checked a Salac Berry out, according to the Calculator its a 2HKO on heatran. I might try this set up out and see how it works.
Any other interesting sets to try?
Ok another Pokémon I think gained a huge buff this gen whom I hardly see is Crawdaunt. It has always had the issue of lack of power and speed in previous gens and is pretty frail. However, get in it safely and you can catch your foe off guard with its power.
Crawdaunt - Focus Sash
What makes this set is Crawdaunt's ability. It boosts movesthat are stab from 1.5x to 2x effective, meaning your water and dark moves are 100% more powerful.
Switch Crawdaunt in safely on a foe with no priority and Ddance. you get brought down to your sash, but now you have a +1 attack and +1 Speed pokemon, its Aqua Jet hits hard, crab hammer is high crit, but if you prefer more accuracy waterfall hits just as hard. Knovk off is boosted to insane levels and you take away your foes items.
Ok its frail, but don't underestimate its power
Problem is with a band or life orb, the only move Crawdaunt can make use of is aqua jet unles you can bring it in safely and like you say its slow so unless you can tank a hit or bring it in on a wall your gotta get taken out.
Crawdaunt is let down by how frail it is but with the sash it can get some action. A safe switch in guarantees at least one dragon dance and then an Aqua jet.
adamant Crawdaunt with 252 Attack and speed EVs has 189 attack at lvl 50 and 107 speed and after a Ddance hits 160 speed and 283 attack.
I normally find that people don't bother attacking crawdaunt the first turn either meaning I can normally get 2 dragon dances before i'm sashed.
A Choice banded Crawdaunt with superpower over dragon dance does gain more coverage, however you wont get many chances to switch it in and out and it still has the issue of only 107 speed.
I've been dabbling around in XY OU a bit recently and here's some interesting underrated threats I've dug up.
Keldeo @ Expert Belt
Timid - Justified
252 Speed, 252 Sp. Atk, 4 HP
More or less standard Choice bluff Keldeo. However usually Keldeo runs Hidden Power whatever to try and muscle past things that usually wall it. After the Hidden Power nerf he simply lacks to power to break bulky Waters with Hidden Power (Electric), as even a super-effective non-STAB base 60 power move isn't going to hurt anything. But most bulky waters have one thing in common. With the exception of Tentacruel they all absolutely despise Toxic. So I figured why not slap it onto that free moveslot? It's not like he's got anything better to put there. It's really paid off too, many times I've Toxic'd Rotom-W on the switch who otherwise walls me to hell and back.
Regirock @ Leftovers
Clear Body - Impish
252 Defence, 252 HP, 4 Attack
I absolutely despise Talonflame and Mega Pinsir with every fiber of my being, and I think
users of those broken pieces of **** deserve to drown in their own pissthey're big threats to the metagame. Most people slap Skarmory or Zapdos onto a team to solve this, but neither of those things really fit onto my team, and besides, Skarm is easily worn down by repeated Flare Blitzes and Close Combats to the face, or outright trapped and killed by Magnezone (MagnePinsir is a really scary core if done properly), and Zapdos runs the risk of being KO'd by a boosted Return after Stealth Rock. And besides, what if you can't afford to put those Pokemon on your team? Well, while I was looking for the perfect Talon/M-Pinsir check, I remembered this guy. I don't think he's seen the light of OU since R/S/E, but now he's back with a vengeance. With a titanic 200 base defense, he is utterly untouchable on the physical side. If this thing ever gets reliable recovery then Skarmory and Gliscor can kiss their spotlights goodbye. But even without it he isn't OHKO'd by +2 Adamant Mega Pinsir's Close Combat, isn't 2HKO'd by unboosted Close Combat, doesn't fear jack **** from Talonflame, and has the bonus of checking Dragonite, Salamence, Heatran, and being able to zap nearly anything physical provided he's at good health. Oh, and he's got Stealth Rock.
Seriously, if you're ever in need of a Talonflame or M-Pinsir check and you don't wanna be a mainstream kid and use Skarmory, give this guy a try. He won't disappoint. The one thing you could consider however is Rock Slide over Stone Edge, because a Stone Edge miss on Mega Pinsir can cost you the game.
Heatran @ Air Balloon
Modest - Flash Fire
252 Sp. Atk, 252 HP, 4 Sp. Def
-Hidden Power (Ice)
Not really much to say here. I just took a basic offensive Heatran set and thought about it for a minute, and I realized that most of the things that he struggles with (Terrakion, Landorus, Tyranitar, Fighting types, etc) hate being burned. So naturally I put Will-O-Wisp on him to burn incoming threats. It's a small change but it's very effective, and burning your opponent's Terrakion can be gamechanging. But I also dug up and dusted off and even more threatening Heatran set...
Heatran @ Leftovers
Calm - Flash Fire
252 HP, 252 Sp. Def, 4 Defence
Anyone who's played DPPt OU knows this set, and most of them hate it (the ones that don't hate it were probably the ones abusing it...). Enter TormenTran, who I will claim to be arguably the single best wall in the metagame, since, if he gets a Substitute off on a switch, he can hard wall 3/4ths of the metagame. Simply switch in on something like Ferrothorn who will inevitably switch out, set up a Substitute, and hit whatever they switch in with Torment. Let's say they switch in Rotom-W, usually a safe switch-in to Heatran. Simply Protect against its Hydro Pump, and then you literally have a free turn where Rotom can't touch you.
Maybe it's the bad people on the ladder but I've been having such enormous success with this thing. Nobody knows how to beat it. I usually run Toxic because Steels almost never stay in on Heatran until they know its moveset, and in a worse case scenario he can literally PP stall them to death. Lava Plume is a solid alternative but doesn't dispose of bulky Waters and the likes as quickly or reliably.
And before someone says something along the lines of "omfg taunt bait l0l0l0l0l kid u suk", go **** yourself. Taunt is just a free switch to a counter.
Last edited by Divine Retribution; 9th April 2014 at 1:23 PM.
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Manaphy: 207-244 (60.7 - 71.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
I'd just run Scald > Toxic and slap Specs on it. Azumarill doesn't really care about Toxic, as the banded set will only nail one thing and then switch out. Gyarados does mind the Toxic, but if that's all your Keldeo can do to it, it's going to still set up and give you issues, even if it can't sweep because of the Poison. Scald cripples both Pokemon completely.
You could also run HP Electric if you were really worried about these two, as it 2HKOs Azu and OHKOs Gyarados.
Gengar @ Black Sludge
EVs: 252 Spd / 252 SAtk / 4 Def
- Shadow Ball
This thing is a major ***** to stall. Nothing on a standard stall team can 2HKO it besides Aegislash, who gets 2HKO'd in turn. Gengar is capable of spreading Burn around, harming everything on a stall team other than Heatran, and is able to hide behind Substitute as it continues to whittle away their stall team. Taunt completely walls Chansey, as it will not be able to cure its allies burns or its own, forcing it to switch out as it can't break Gengar's Substitute.
To summarize, Gengar pretty much just shuts down the opponent's entire team from turn 1. Gliscor can't do squat thanks to Taunt and the fact that Gengar is immune to Earthquake and Toxic. Blissey gets completely shut down and slowly worn down with Taunt + Will-O-Wisp. Mega Venusaur is also worn down by Will-O-Wisp + Shadow Ball. Mandibuzz is the only real roadblock here, but with Stealth Rock and something to take Knock Off, Ash Borer is able to easily wear it down. The only other Pokemon on that team that would have even had a chance was Latias, and even then it has to win the speed tie and is forced to take a ton of damage from Shadow Ball if Gengar is already behind a Substitute.
Even non-stall teams hate to face this thing. The combination of Substitute + Will-O-Wisp does a fantastic job of luring in Gengar's usual checks and crippling them, and Shadow Ball has pretty good neutral coverage by itself. Taunt is less useful against more offensive teams, but it does keep things like Calm Mind Clefable from setting up on you, and you can prevent the opponent from using Stealth Rock or Defog, which is pretty nice. Definitely a solid set in general.
You know, I can already see this getting laughed at, but ehh, might as well post this regardless.
Mamoswine @ Life Orb
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 124 HP / 252 Atk / 72 Satk / 52 Spd
- Freeze Dry
- Ice Shard
- Icicle Crash
Youre probably thinking to yourself "wut. Mixed Mamoswine? Why!?" Its simple: Rotom W. It basically acts as a lure, because normally Rotom has a field day with Mamo, since hes immune to Earthquake and takes pitiful damage against Icicle Crash/Stone Edge. So naturally, the smart player would switch in to force Mamoswine out, or just outright KO him if he decides to stay in. Not with this set. 72 SpAtk EVs and a neutral nature allow for a solid chance (~80%) to 2HKO, including Leftovers. Given the fact that predicting the switch in isnt too hard, Ive been somewhat successful with this set. The 52 Speed EVs allow me to outspeed minumum speed Rotom and everything slower, but you can always speed creep to make sure you win; just take the EVs out of HP. This set also has a field day with Gyarados. If you can nail him on the switch, you have a solid 94% chance to outright OHKO him.
I run a specially defensive Heliolisk.
I give it assault vest just so that it's sp.def can be so much higher plus it really doesn't learn any good utility moves I guess. People always expect a specially offensive set for it but I usually bring this thing in to take a Draco Meteor from Latios and it takes it quite well, it can either attack back with HP ice or dark pulse, it learns surf for all those ground types that come in on it and parabolic charge is an optional recovery move or you can just give it a stronger electric move. This thing can come in on any water type attack and recover hp with dry skin and strike back at fire types most notably Megazard Y who comes in to take advantage of dry skin with surf. You can run mixed ev's to either fully invest in HP and Sp.def or give some ev's to special attack so that it can hit that much harder since the assault vest will increase it's spe.def . It doesn't really need any speed ev's but if you want to give it some you can.
Ability: Dry skin
EV's: 252 HP/252 sp.def/4 sp.attack (but can add more to sp.attack)
-Volt switch/Parabolic charge/thunderbolt
-hp ice/grass knot
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Heliolisk: 331-390 (100.9 - 118.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Or for that matter, it's outsped and 3HKO'd if it switches in on Draco Meteor too.
252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Heliolisk: 160-189 (48.7 - 57.6%)
-2 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Heliolisk: 81-96 (24.6 - 29.2%)
-4 252 SpA Choice Specs Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Heliolisk: 54-64 (16.4 - 19.5%)
High chance to 3HKO, guaranteed with a layer of hazards.
Last edited by Divine Retribution; 16th April 2014 at 1:46 PM.
Usually these Mamoswines run Choice Specs and max SAtk, simply because specially mamoswine is so freaking weak.
From what I've seen of it, it tends to be
Mamoswine @ Choice Specs / Life Orb
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 160 Atk / 252 SAtk / 96 Spd
- Ice Shard
- Icicle Crash
Nice to see another Freeze-Dry mamoswine user lol
While I get what you're saying, it's a lure, and not a full out mixed set. All he really needs to do is beat Rotom, and once he's done with that he's fulfilled the purpose on the team. I've really been liking bulky Mamoswine lately, as it allows me to eat up a few hits and retaliate back. Once Rotom is dead, the surprise is up so I never find myself able to use Freeze Dry again. That being said, I still want to maintain offensive presence where it truly matters, which is on the physical side. Im still able to OHKO Aegislash thru shield forme if hes taken prior damage (~15-20%), and punch holes into the slower things on the opponents team.
Anyway, I have also been using a physically defensive Spiritomb and it's a pretty good counter to Aegishlash. If it uses swords dance it can survive a few hits and retaliate with Foul Play. With infiltrator it can will-o-wisp things behind a sub. But it does kinda suck that pain split is it's only form of HP recovery. I have 2HKO'd a Mega Garchomp with Foul Play after surviving two STAB earthquakes. This thing is pretty decent in OU. It's a spin blocker, resists psychic and fighting types, its only flaws are that it's way too slow and it's HP is way too low.
Spiritomb @ Leftovers/Lum Berry.
EV's 252 HP/ 252 Def/ 4 HP
Ivs: 31 hp 0 attack 31 defense 0 special attack 31 special defense 31 speed
Evs: hp and speed
Item: sitrus berry
This needs support, like poke's with good coverage. But this is my idea for a smeargal that gains you a tone of momentum while suppressing your opponents momentum. Basically you use fake out, then power swap. The opponent won't want smeargals crappy offensive stats, so they switch, when they do you can uturn into something that beats that. Later game, you can use spore than uturn out into something that beats it to force another switch and get another free turn
Last edited by Natural; 21st April 2014 at 2:32 AM.
Power Swap actually switches around just changes in offensive stats, not the stats in general, I think you're thinking about Power Split.
Anyway, I don't really see any reason not to run Parting Shot over U-Turn (well, besides Taunt, I guess) if you want to go for momentum by lowering stats.