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Thread: Mega Lucario Discussion Thread

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    Default Mega Lucario Discussion Thread

    Mega Lucario has been banned from OU. This discussion will now continue with his effectiveness in the Ubers metagame.



    Base stats: 70/110/70/115/70/90

    Mega Evolution base stats: 70/145/88/140/70/112


    With the advent of Gen six, mega evolutions were added. Not every Pokemon received them, and some of the ones that did immediately became top tier OU threats. One such example is Lucario.

    Pros:

    - Can go both physical and special, each has its own set of checks
    - Has one of the best offensive abilities in the game: Adaptability
    - Gets both +2 Offensive boosting moves
    - Great speed tier
    - Great coverage moves in Crunch, Ice Punch, and Dark Pulse
    - Gets a 240 Base Power move in Close Combat
    - Gets a +2 priority in Extreme Speed, which allows him to kill would be checks such as Talonflame

    Cons:

    - Frail
    - Mega Evolution added nothing to his special defense, meaning that strong special attackers can KO him
    - Easily revenge killed
    - Close Combat lowers defenses, meaning anything that can survive a +2 Close Combat can kill him.
    - Scarf users that can take a boosted Extreme Speed/ Bullet Punch can do serious damage to him.

    With all of his pros, and few cons, Mega Lucario quickly became one of the most used Mega Evolutions with the ban of Gengarite and Kangaskahnite. With his rise in popularity, many players feel that he over centralizes the metagame.

    Here is a common Physical set seen on the Pokemon Showdown Ladder:

    Lucario @ Lucarionite
    Jolly Nature
    Justified/Adaptability
    4 HP 252 Atk 252 Spe
    - Close Combat
    - Swords Dance
    - Extreme Speed/ Bullet Punch
    - Crunch/ Ice Punch

    This set is simple. Come in on something that can't hurt Luke. Mega Evolve and Swords Dance on the switch, then Close Combat everything that doesnt 4x resist it (remember that a 2x resisted Close Combat is still more powerful than any of his other moves when they are neutral). If Aegislash doesn't bother you, a great option to run is Ice Punch. It hits many Dragons 4x super effectively, and KOs Gliscor and Landorus, both of which wall Luke without it. Ghosts and Psychic types can sometimes be a problem, so Crunch is a good option for coverage. Crunch is the only thing that is able to hurt Aegislash, who otherwise forces Luke out and sets up, or goes straight for the KO. Talonflame, while normally a problem, can be bypassed with Extreme Speed. The +2 priority allows Luke to hit before Brave Bird, and is a guaranteed KO at +2 with Stealth Rock in play.

    Here is the special variant of Mega Lucario:

    Lucario @ Lucarionite
    Timid Nature
    Steadfast/ Adaptability
    4 HP 252 SpAtk 252 SPe
    Nasty Plot
    Vaccum Wave
    Flash Cannon/ Aura Sphere
    Dark Pulse

    This set basically works the same as the physical variant. Come in on something that can't hurt it, set up, then sweep. Vaccuum Wave is a decent priority move that hits first with 80 Base Power. Flash Cannon is often used against fairies, but if your team has them covered, you can opt for a more powerful fighting type move in Aura Sphere. Dark Pulse allows Luke to hit ghosts fairly hard, the most notable being Aegislash. If played correctly, Aegislash can completely wall physical variants, while Talonflame is a good hard counter to the special sets, as Vaccuum Wave doesnt hit very hard, and Luke is KOd by an unboosted Flare Blitz.

    He is also a suspect for the suspect test currently going on on Smogon. Discuss.
    Last edited by Clone™; 17th February 2014 at 1:36 AM. Reason: added Special set to OP, edited physical set description. Added Mega Sprite

  2. #2
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    I would add the nasty plot set to the OP as its a bit more common than physical Mega Lucario



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    Quote Originally Posted by McDanger View Post
    I would add the nasty plot set to the OP as its a bit more common than physical Mega Lucario
    Lucario @ Lucarionite
    Nature: Timid
    Ability: Steadfast
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    ~Nasty Plot
    ~Aura Sphere
    ~Flash Cannon
    ~Dark Pulse / Vacuum Wave

    This set is similar to its Physical set.
    Switch in on something that can't hurt Luke, Set-up with Nasty Plot boosting its Special Attack by 2 stages. Aura Sphere and Flash Cannon as your powerful STAB moves and great coverage. Dark Pulse / Vacuum Wave depending on the user's preferred choice.

    Lucario is definitely one of the Pokemon blessed in Generation 6 with a Mega, taking advantage of both its Physical and Special Attacking stats.

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    I'm honestly expecting Mega Lucario to get banned soon. Even Gliscor is 2HKO'd by Ice Punch with no boosts and OHKO'd with the boost. Jellicent has to wait to come in until after one of your Pokemon come in before it can attempt to burn it with Will-o-wisp and then that is assuming you hit because it is 2HKO'd by Crunch. If Mega Lucario is at +2 and has Crunch, the only way Jellicent can survive is if it has 252 HP / 252 Def and a defense boosting nature.

    I truly believe it fulfills the requirement Ability To Sweep with little to no set up. With those kind of KOs at its disposal and very high Speed, it is very difficult to stop without having Multiscale ability or Sturdy and full health. Being unpredictable as to if it is physical or special makes it set of checks change. Gyarados would be one of the few things that could check Mega Lucario safely if the Mega Lucario is not boosted. Intimidate would be required as the ability for this to work.
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    Ill add the Nasty Plot set to the OP. I just had an example of a set it runs well.


    @Dragonexpert: Im not sure if he will get banned, but Ive said this before and Ill say it again. There is talk of him becoming a suspect for the first rounds of suspect testing on Smogon. Whether or not he gets banned is up ot the testers. His main flaw is that he is easily revenge killed. Granted, he works the best when all his counters are taken out, but then again, so do all Pokemon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloneblazer12 View Post
    There is talk of him becoming a suspect for the first rounds of suspect testing on Smogon.
    there's not talk of it happening

    it's actually happening

    it is a suspect, and from the way the thread on there is moving, it's likely going to be banned

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    Quote Originally Posted by Excitable Boy View Post
    there's not talk of it happening

    it's actually happening

    it is a suspect, and from the way the thread on there is moving, it's likely going to be banned
    The last I checked was before the suspects were officially released. Ive updated the OP to include that. And yes, hes gonna get banned. Theres really no arguements about that.

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    I think mixing in a flash cannon on a physical one is a good way to catch opponents by surprise.

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    tbh mega lucario doesnt need it when it can basically spam close combat and get the desired effect or use some coverage



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    Quote Originally Posted by Ace Trainer Riana View Post
    I think mixing in a flash cannon on a physical one is a good way to catch opponents by surprise.
    The main reason why you would use Flash Cannon is for faires. Most Fairies are specially defensive, so with no investment,, it wont do much damage.

    Your best bet for mixed is invest in SpAtk, then add Close Combat for good measure.

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    I'm pretty sure Mega Luke will get banned. I mean, come on. 140 base attack + Adaptability + Close Combat + Swords Dance = OP. Everything that resists it can be picked off by his coverage moves (Bullet Punch, Ice Punch or Crunch).

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    The Nasty Plot set should look like this:

    Lucario @ Lucarionite
    Ability: Steadfast
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Nasty Plot
    - Dark Pulse
    - Aura Sphere / Vacuum Wave
    - Flash Cannon

    Flash Cannon is an absolute necessity on Mega Lucario because you have to hit fairies for super-effective damage, otherwise, you're pretty much walled by them, most notably Sylveon & Clefable. I've done two calculations for both of them, shown below.

        Spoiler:- Damage Calculations:


    Anyways, on to the main topic at hand. Yes, Mega Luke is extremely unhealthy for the meta, especially in it's current state. 145 / 140 / 112 offenses combined with two great boosting moves in Swords Dance & Nasty Plot, a myriad of coverage options to hit a wide variety of threats for super effective damage & 3 (Count them, 3) priority moves, with two of them being 80 Base Power counting in Adaptability, along with STAB & Extremespeed, which allows it to bypass several faster threats. If you're looking at a foolproof switch-in to Mega Luke, forget about it, because the thing that makes him extremely dangerous is the surprise factor, because if you predict for the wrong set, you could find yourself on the wrong side of a 6 - 0 or a late game sweep.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Ciel View Post
    The Nasty Plot set should look like this:

    Lucario @ Lucarionite
    Ability: Steadfast
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Nasty Plot
    - Dark Pulse
    - Aura Sphere / Vacuum Wave
    - Flash Cannon

    Flash Cannon is an absolute necessity on Mega Lucario because you have to hit fairies for super-effective damage, otherwise, you're pretty much walled by them, most notably Sylveon & Clefable. I've done two calculations for both of them, shown below.

        Spoiler:- Damage Calculations:


    Anyways, on to the main topic at hand. Yes, Mega Luke is extremely unhealthy for the meta, especially in it's current state. 145 / 140 / 112 offenses combined with two great boosting moves in Swords Dance & Nasty Plot, a myriad of coverage options to hit a wide variety of threats for super effective damage & 3 (Count them, 3) priority moves, with two of them being 80 Base Power counting in Adaptability, along with STAB & Extremespeed, which allows it to bypass several faster threats. If you're looking at a foolproof switch-in to Mega Luke, forget about it, because the thing that makes him extremely dangerous is the surprise factor, because if you predict for the wrong set, you could find yourself on the wrong side of a 6 - 0 or a late game sweep.
    I had the primary slash as Flash Cannon for that specific reason, to hit Fairies. Aura Sphere is for if you have them covered and want a stronger Fighting type STAB. Also, Vacuum Wave is a necessity to be able to hit Scarfers before they can hit you. Dark Pulse is for coverage, and Nastly Plot boosts.

    Back on topic. Do I feel that he overcentralizes the metagame? Yes, to a certain extent. He suffers from 4 Moveslot Syndrome, as what coverage moves he runs determine his counters. For the physical set, Gliscor and Pivot Landorus-T walls it and KOs with Earthquake if he doesnt run Ice Punch, while Aegislash can eat up any move but Crunch, which is a 2HKO IIRC and if it gets a safe switch in, it can KO with Sacred Sword. Physically defensive Venusaur walls it to oblivion, forcing him out or putting him to sleep. The special set has less counters, with the only thing that comes to mind is Specially defensive Mega Venusaur. Aside from those, most walls are 2HKOd by a boosted Close Combat/ Aura Sphere, which is his main problem.

    One thing I mentioned is that hes easily revenge killed. Most Scarfers will outspeed him, which is good. Garchomp comes to mind, as he can survive a +2 Extreme Speed/Bullet Punch/ Vaccuum Wave and get an easy KO with Earthquake. Overall though, I feel like he has a small chance of staying. People just need to learn how to adapt. Thats my opinion on the matter.

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    Stall teams everywhere will be rejoicing if this thing gets banned, and I think that it should be for reasons that have already been mentioned.

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    Another reason for Flash Cannon is Gliscor. It can wall a regular physical lucario, but I've found out that with Stealth Rock damage, it can knock one out in a single hit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ace Trainer Riana View Post
    Another reason for Flash Cannon is Gliscor. It can wall a regular physical lucario, but I've found out that with Stealth Rock damage, it can knock one out in a single hit.
    No it can't.


    252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 234-276 (66.1 - 77.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
    252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 240 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 234-276 (66.6 - 78.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal
    252 SpA Adaptability Mega Lucario Flash Cannon vs. 184 HP / 0 SpD Gliscor: 234-276 (69.4 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Poison Heal

    Against all common EV spreads, Gliscor is never 1HKO'ed by a non-boosted Flash Cannon even with Stealth Rock.

    Plus that's assuming 252 SpA EVs and a timid nature. If you're just throwing Flash Cannon onto a physical set, it'll do even less damage. If you're really worried about Gliscor on a physical Lucario, Ice Punch is the way to go. That said, you have to give up either Crunch or Bullet Punch for that (given you always want to have Close Combat on a physical set), so your coverage suffers accordingly.

    Plus, with two fantastic boosting abilities in Swords Dance and Nasty Plot, mixed Lucario tends to be outclassed compared to fully dedicated Physical or Special. Especially since after an SD Lucario can threaten to 2HKO Gliscor with Close Combat, meaning it's not an insurmountable obstacle (granted, most of the time you won't want to keep your physical Lucario in on a full health Gliscor but I digress).
    Last edited by KillerDraco; 1st February 2014 at 3:57 PM.
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    I'm a bit confused, where is Mega Lucario supposedly getting banned? Do we really need MORE banned Pokemon? If people are foolish enough to not be able to counter anything (My team can just about counter anything, my team can counter ALL the megas.)
    I see no reason to call for it to be banned, I use mega lucario all the time, it's biggest weakness I've found is Talonflame, Mega Blaziken and such. Other Mega Lucarios with swordsdance and extremespeed knock out my Mega Lucario that I use.
    I mean it may be a surprise for some people but actually some people hate long battles. I like mine to be over quick and not stall and enrage people with being a troll, it may be a good strategy but it is just not my personal fighting style.

    Keep in mind this is just my opinion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PinkiePieFox View Post
    I'm a bit confused, where is Mega Lucario supposedly getting banned? Do we really need MORE banned Pokemon? If people are foolish enough to not be able to counter anything (My team can just about counter anything, my team can counter ALL the megas.)
    I see no reason to call for it to be banned, I use mega lucario all the time, it's biggest weakness I've found is Talonflame, Mega Blaziken and such. Other Mega Lucarios with swordsdance and extremespeed knock out my Mega Lucario that I use.
    I mean it may be a surprise for some people but actually some people hate long battles. I like mine to be over quick and not stall and enrage people with being a troll, it may be a good strategy but it is just not my personal fighting style.

    Keep in mind this is just my opinion.
    Mega Blaziken does not count because it is in the Uber tier already. Talonflame is only a check because if Mega Lucario carries Extreme Speed, that will move before Brave Bird.
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    There seems to be an over centralization towards Mega Lucario in the game right now. Hence its impending suspect test.

    There is nothing that switches safely into it because it can be too late to find out what kind of set it is running.

    Even if you do have something. It is purely because you have specifically made a counter for one of the many hundred Pokemon which isn't particularly helpful for the mmany teams who don't use Mega Lucario.

    My current opinion of the metagame is an unhealthy one. Some awful teams are being more successful due to the fact they can abuse other teams with raw power. This is probably why bulky offensive teams are on the rise. They can take and deal with how powerful battling is at the moment. Mega Lucario is sheer abuse.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Debury View Post
    There seems to be an over centralization towards Mega Lucario in the game right now. Hence its impending suspect test.

    There is nothing that switches safely into it because it can be too late to find out what kind of set it is running.

    Even if you do have something. It is purely because you have specifically made a counter for one of the many hundred Pokemon which isn't particularly helpful for the mmany teams who don't use Mega Lucario.

    My current opinion of the metagame is an unhealthy one. Some awful teams are being more successful due to the fact they can abuse other teams with raw power. This is probably why bulky offensive teams are on the rise. They can take and deal with how powerful battling is at the moment. Mega Lucario is sheer abuse.
    Bulky offense as a playstyle is an effective one. It doesnt make the metagame unhealthy at all. I use this playstyle myslef, and I can guarantee you that it is not OP in any way. If a team has success, then it really isnt that awful, now is it? I can beat the awful teams 5-0 or 6-0 evey time, its really not that hard.

    As for Mega Luke, he does have a few safe switch ins. Not a lot, but a few. Venusaur and Aegislash are the ones that come to mind. Both can eat up what Luke throws at them, and the can realiate with a SE Earthquake/Sacred Sword respectively. The best way to beat him, however, is to revenge kill him. Scarfchomp and Talonflame both can eat up a +2 Priotiry move granted Stealth Rock is not up in Talonflames Case.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cloneblazer12 View Post
    Bulky offense as a playstyle is an effective one. It doesnt make the metagame unhealthy at all. I use this playstyle myslef, and I can guarantee you that it is not OP in any way. If a team has success, then it really isnt that awful, now is it? I can beat the awful teams 5-0 or 6-0 evey time, its really not that hard.

    As for Mega Luke, he does have a few safe switch ins. Not a lot, but a few. Venusaur and Aegislash are the ones that come to mind. Both can eat up what Luke throws at them, and the can realiate with a SE Earthquake/Sacred Sword respectively. The best way to beat him, however, is to revenge kill him. Scarfchomp and Talonflame both can eat up a +2 Priotiry move granted Stealth Rock is not up in Talonflames Case.
    Physical Megaluke carries Crunch for Aegis.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeon™ View Post
    Physical Megaluke carries Crunch for Aegis.
    And Special Megaluke beats both of those. (Shadow Ball for Aegis, and Flash Cannon for Venusaur. To my knowledge, both OHKO at +2.)

    Luke has basically no safe switch-ins. The closest thing is Talonflame, and that gets eradicated by SR + ESpeed. The ability to dismantle entire, normally competent teams with just a single turn of setup is, to me, unhealthy for the metagame. Can't wait for the results of this suspect test.

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    I wasn't angling at bulky offense being unhealthy. Just some aspects which has led to bulky offence being almost the go to style atm. Talonflame with its ridiculous ability, Genesects super fast u-turning to wear teams down are examples.

    Venusaur can switch in but can only take a couple of flash cannons. Depends on how smart the opponent is though.

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    Maybe it's just me, but Mega Luke has never given me much trouble. In every battle, there is something on your team that will not necessarily be useful. Use that as fodder to lower Luke's defenses following a Close Combat. Switch into a fast sweeper or boosting pokemon (SD Talonflame comes to mind). They'll switch out, but by the time they mega they will probably be missing a few pokemon. Often, their whole team, not just Mega Luke, can be taken out this way. However, it is worth noting that I'm the guy who thought Genesect didn't need to be banned in Gen 5, so I realize not everyone will agree with me.
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    Mega Lucario is an absolute beast with its ability to go Special or Physical (or even mixed if you wanted surprise factor over power, even though its still pretty damn powerful without full investment on either side of the spectrum). I've found in my experiences that the best way to deal with Lucario-M is to take it out with a well placed EQ or Earth Power BEFORE it has a chance to Mega Evolve and proceed to outspeed and demolish your entire team (checks included sometimes, not many things can live a 1 or 2HKO and proceed to OHKO MegaLuc back). Usually it comes down to me predicting the switch-in to Lucario and switching to something that can outspeed and KO it before it Mega Evolves. Either way I tend to lose like 50% of the time when Lucario gets a chance to Mega Evolve, and its pretty much "gg" if it manages to get a boost off.

    He's certainly a headache to deal with but can be a lot of fun to use.
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