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Thread: U.S. 2014/2016 Election Thread: The Man in the High Chair

  1. #6251
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trainer Yusuf View Post
    This sort of **** happens all the time in Turkey and Russia and their diaspora, so expect this to turn into an international issue soon.
    So, uh, cases of an ambassador being murdered in the country they're emissaries for "happens often"?

    Given all the stories of violence over the New Year, it seems this sort of thing is getting much, MUCH more common of late.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trainer Yusuf View Post
    Actually, it is against the increasing number of non-Whites in North Carolina, so it is just straight up colonialism, just like the gentrification policies in Harlem and Brooklyn.
    "Colonialism", right, uh-huh. You make it sound like an invasion.
    I support: Mr. Barrack Obama, Ms. Hillary Clinton, Liberalism in all its forms, LGBT rights, pro-choice, affordable healthcare, Social Security, a Path to Citizenship, and civil rights.

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    https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...stupid/511634/

    This is a good read on how the economy and other issues matter less than identity politics. A city where unemployment dropped by 20% feels like nothing changed at all.

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    So the House GOP decides to gut their own ethics watchdog... This wasn't even Trump's idea!

    http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/02/politi...tee-amendment/

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    Trump is basically going to mask the GOPs worst actions I think. They're going to use him as a scapegoat whenever things go bad for them, when they're the ones passing the worst long term stuff. Yes Trump is terrible and will be reactionary in the worst way, but when it comes to the long term "Who can we screw over to put money in our pockets" things, it's the main party.

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    Alright. Good news that the House Republicans backed off on gutting the watchdog after Trump called attention to it... but that was too close.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Silver Soul View Post
    Alright. Good news that the House Republicans backed off on gutting the watchdog after Trump called attention to it... but that was too close.

    Yes, they held an emergency session to change their minds after their decision sparked outrage. Know why? Cause they can talk the talk but can't walk the walk.

    The Republican party doesn't even believe in the causes they support, they're just in it for their own selfish gain. They have no courage nor convictions, and when a decision they make turns public opinion sour, they show their true colors and wimp out.
    I support: Mr. Barrack Obama, Ms. Hillary Clinton, Liberalism in all its forms, LGBT rights, pro-choice, affordable healthcare, Social Security, a Path to Citizenship, and civil rights.

    I oppose: Mr. Donald Trump, Conservativism, corporate greed, austerity, the NRA, pro-lifers, fundamentalists, and the death penalty.

    I regret: NONE of those views.

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    What do the liberals think about Obama stabbing Israel in the back at the UN? I'm curious to see how they spin Israeli settlements as dangerous, bigoted, and hateful...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsman4 View Post
    What do the liberals think about Obama stabbing Israel in the back at the UN? I'm curious to see how they spin Israeli settlements as dangerous, bigoted, and hateful...
    You do realize that those settlements are illegal under international law.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Remix2 View Post
    You do realize that those settlements are illegal under international law.
    You do realize that the land belongs to Israel and the Palestinians break international law daily and don't get so much as a slap on the wrist, right?

    Now personally, I wouldn't want to build settlements in an area with a bunch of blood lusting terrorists, but they do have a right to their own land. Israel won the land when the arabs invaded them back in 1967 because they won the war.

    It's their land, they can do whatever the heck they like with it. Foreign nations can't tell them what to do with it anymore than I can tell you what to do with your property.
    Last edited by Swordsman4; 4th January 2017 at 4:33 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsman4 View Post
    What do the liberals think about Obama stabbing Israel in the back at the UN? I'm curious to see how they spin Israeli settlements as dangerous, bigoted, and hateful...
    The issue is their legality under International Law. The West Bank was annexed by Israel after the 6 day war in 1967. Prior to that since 1948 it had been controlled by Jordan, though Jordan's annexation was not recognised Internationally except by the UK. Artcile 49(6) of the fourth Geneva convention prohibits states from transferring their own civilian populations into territories they occupy as a result of war:

    The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies
    https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/appli...5?OpenDocument

    Israel is a party to the convention so the rule applies - though they have disputes it's application to the settlements. Article 8 of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court also declares transfer a war crime, but Israel has never ratified that treaty.

    Interational bodies and UN organs are generally of the consensus that the settlements are in breach of this provision. The 2004 advisory opinion of the International Court of Justice provides at [120]:

    As regards these settlemeilts, the Court notes that Article 49, paragraph 6, of the Fourth Geneva Convention provides: "The Occupy- ing Power shall not dlrport or transfer parts of its ow11 civilian population into the territory it occupies." That provision prohibits not only depor- tations or forced transfers of population such as those carried out during the Second World War, but also any measures taken by an occupying Power in order to oirganize or encourage transfers of parts of its own population into the ciccupied territory.
    In this respect, the information provided to the Court shows that, since 1977, Israel has condiucted a policy and developed practices involving the establishment of Settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territory, contrary to the terms of Article 49, paragraph 6, just cited
    http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/131/1671.pdf

    Opponents of this view argue art 49(6) only applies to either forcible mass transfers or to situations where transfer causes displacement of local populations - they would argue that the settlements therefore don't breach the article as they are voluntary settlements and were not intended to displace Palestinians from the area.

    Another, and in my opinion better, argument would be that the Oslo accords in leaving the issue of settlements to be resolved post their ratification represent Palestinians accepted the temporary presence of Israeli settlements pending further negotiation, and thus there is no basis for declaring them illegal.

    As to whether the settlements are "dangerous, bigoted or hateful" (those are not the best terms to apply here) comes to a question as to the settlements affects on the human rights of Palestinians living in the West Bank. The Economic and Social council's 2005 report highlight discriminatory polices against Palestinians by the Israeli government, particuarly in relation to roads:

    As pointed out in my main report to the sixty-first session of the Commission (E/CN.4/2005/29) bypass roads have been built to link settlements to each other and settlements to Israel which are closed to Palestinian traffic. Palestinians have been compelled to use secondary roads in poor repair - or blocked by checkpoints or roadblocks. Aware of this problem, the Government of Israel has approached donors with the request that they fund the construction of new roads for the Palestinian population. This further illustrates the manner in which Israel allows the interests of its settler community to outweigh its manifest responsibility as occupying Power to provide basic facilities for the protected persons under its control.
    http://www.miftah.org/Doc/Reports/2005/G0511608.pdf

    A Human Rights Council Report in 2013 also made conclusion that the settlements constituted breaches of rights to self-determination, non-discrimination, access to water and freedom of movement.

    http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/HRBod...ettlements.pdf

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pikachu52 View Post
    The issue is their legality under International Law. The West Bank was annexed by Israel after the 6 day war in 1967. Prior to that since 1948 it had been controlled by Jordan, though Jordan's annexation was not recognised Internationally except by the UK. Artcile 49(6) of the fourth Geneva convention prohibits states from transferring their own civilian populations into territories they occupy as a result of war:



    https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/appli...5?OpenDocument

    Israel is a party to the convention so the rule applies - though they have disputes it's application to the settlements. Article 8 of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court also declares transfer a war crime, but Israel has never ratified that treaty.

    Interational bodies and UN organs are generally of the consensus that the settlements are in breach of this provision. The 2004 advisory opinion of the International Court of Justice provides at [120]:



    http://www.icj-cij.org/docket/files/131/1671.pdf

    Opponents of this view argue art 49(6) only applies to either forcible mass transfers or to situations where transfer causes displacement of local populations - they would argue that the settlements therefore don't breach the article as they are voluntary settlements and were not intended to displace Palestinians from the area.

    Another, and in my opinion better, argument would be that the Oslo accords in leaving the issue of settlements to be resolved post their ratification represent Palestinians accepted the temporary presence of Israeli settlements pending further negotiation, and thus there is no basis for declaring them illegal.

    As to whether the settlements are "dangerous, bigoted or hateful" (those are not the best terms to apply here) comes to a question as to the settlements affects on the human rights of Palestinians living in the West Bank. The Economic and Social council's 2005 report highlight discriminatory polices against Palestinians by the Israeli government, particuarly in relation to roads:



    http://www.miftah.org/Doc/Reports/2005/G0511608.pdf

    A Human Rights Council Report in 2013 also made conclusion that the settlements constituted breaches of rights to self-determination, non-discrimination, access to water and freedom of movement.

    http://www.ohchr.org/Documents/HRBod...ettlements.pdf
    wow thank you for this. I better understand what is happening out there now thanks to you!
    Do you have an opinion personally on the matter?

    Seems like they should all take equality classes :P

  12. #6262
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    It also doesn't help that Israel will do some terrible thing, then run to the US for protection, and the biggest support for them here is literally because people here think that's where Jesus will rise again and if Israel is gone he won't come back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bobjr View Post
    It also doesn't help that Israel will do some terrible thing, then run to the US for protection, and the biggest support for them here is literally because people here think that's where Jesus will rise again and if Israel is gone he won't come back.
    thats so ****ed up.... is that seriously why people protect Israel?!

    edit: I just did some research and Israel is like an opening into the middle east for the US.

    Military reasons basically.
    Last edited by lemoncatpower; 4th January 2017 at 9:49 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lemoncatpower View Post
    thats so ****ed up.... is that seriously why people protect Israel?!

    edit: I just did some research and Israel is like an opening into the middle east for the US.

    Military reasons basically.
    There are several reasons overall, and none of them are particularly great. They're just an ally in the loosest sense of the word, and the military is a good front reason, but a lot of it lies in the "Oh they're the defenders of Christianity up against the Muslims" things they don't outright admit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bobjr View Post
    It also doesn't help that Israel will do some terrible thing, then run to the US for protection, and the biggest support for them here is literally because people here think that's where Jesus will rise again and if Israel is gone he won't come back.
    Terrible things hmm...like using human shields, wait that's something Hamas does–whom the Palestinians support. Keep trying though...

    Man, Assad uses chemical weapons, Iran violates the nuke deal and shouts death to Israel/USA/England/Any Peace Loving Country and Israel are the people doing terrible things. Biblically the land is Israel's, even if you ignore that it still doesn't stop the fact that land taken during a war is won by the victor.

    Heck, Israel has given up land just to try to appease Abbas and they use it to lob rockets at Israel. Israel isn't the problem, the so-called "nation" of Palestine is. Good Lord, wake up!
    Last edited by Swordsman4; 4th January 2017 at 10:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bobjr View Post
    There are several reasons overall, and none of them are particularly great. They're just an ally in the loosest sense of the word, and the military is a good front reason, but a lot of it lies in the "Oh they're the defenders of Christianity up against the Muslims" things they don't outright admit.
    that's really horrible actually. Religious people need stay far far away from politics if they can't handle not including religion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lemoncatpower View Post
    that's really horrible actually. Religious people need stay far far away from politics if they can't handle not including religion.
    Dude, it ain't about religion. It's about Israel actually fighting terrorism and not threatening death to every other country. The Israelis are one of the few people in the Middle East that don't send their money to terrorist organizations. Abbas supports terror organizations like Hamas and uses human shields as his people launch rockets into Israel.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsman4 View Post
    Dude, it ain't about religion. It's about Israel actually fighting terrorism and not threatening death to every other country. The Israelis are one of the few people in the Middle East that don't send their money to terrorist organizations. Abbas supports terror organizations like Hamas and uses human shields as his people launch rockets into Israel.
    Nothing said fighting terrorism like doing a bombfest on gaza and killing 80% civilians and stealing land in the West Bank that belong to the Palestinian resulted in hamas becoming more popular.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsman4 View Post
    Dude, it ain't about religion. It's about Israel actually fighting terrorism and not threatening death to every other country. The Israelis are one of the few people in the Middle East that don't send their money to terrorist organizations. Abbas supports terror organizations like Hamas and uses human shields as his people launch rockets into Israel.
    dude I don't even know what to say to this lol... terrorists use religion as a front for murdering and killing people. If America is siding with Israel due to them being Christian vs Palestenians being Muslims as the above person stated, then yes it is about religion. It's all about religion and if people can sidestep religion to come together and leave religion out of it then it'd be a lot easier to go about this. Maybe just my opinion? I'm not saying religion is the sole cause, but religion is definitely included in this situation.

    If you can't make a responsible decision due to some religious belief, I do not believe that person is fit for government.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Remix2 View Post
    Nothing said fighting terrorism like doing a bombfest on gaza and killing 80% civilians and stealing land in the West Bank that belong to the Palestinian resulted in hamas becoming more popular.
    The Israeli military goes out of their way to warn civilians ahead of time. That said, the casualty rate is because Hamas uses human shields. They set up in schools, houses, hospitals, and launch rockets from those locations. Hamas has always been popular amongst the Palestinians because they hate Israel. Their very religious books say that the rocks will cry out look here is a Jew. The same ideas that prevailed in Germany of old resides in the hearts of Iran, Palestine, and the like. They want to kill Israel and somehow Israel is the villain for defending themselves.

    Imagine Mexico was lobbing rockets into Texas. Should we just let the rockets hit the US?

    @Lemon, again what part of Israel aren't the aggressors don't you understand? Israel defends themselves from terrorists, and we have always sided with them because they are one of the few nations in the Middle East that don't want to kill us and others. Heck, want to talk violence look at Turkey's shady past and look at Palestine.
    Last edited by Swordsman4; 4th January 2017 at 10:35 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsman4 View Post
    The Israeli military goes out of their way to warn civilians ahead of time. That said, the casualty rate is because Hamas uses human shields. They set up in schools, houses, hospitals, and launch rockets from those locations. Hamas has always been popular amongst the Palestinians because they hate Israel. Their very religious books say that the rocks will cry out look here is a Jew. The same ideas that prevailed in Germany of old resides in the hearts of Iran, Palestine, and the like. They want to kill Israel and somehow Israel is the villain for defending themselves.

    Imagine Mexico was lobbing rockets into Texas. Should we just let the rockets hit the US?
    they should probably find out why first and see if they can come to a solution before firing a bunch of rockets back and causing more death on top of everything.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lemoncatpower View Post
    they should probably find out why first and see if they can come to a solution before firing a bunch of rockets back and causing more death on top of everything.
    What do you think land for peace was for? Israel has gone to the negotiating table multiple times to try to work a "two-state solution" only for Palestine to take the land and set up MORE ROCKETS in the land that Israel gives them.

    They have given up on peace because Palestine doesn't want peace and goes back on their word every single stinking time.

    Heck, ever stopped and looked at which country sends terrorists to stab people? Or how about which country tunnels underneath the other country so they can pop up and attack?

    It isn't Israel...that's for sure...

    You also said that a nation needs to find out why there is hatred. Anti-Semitism is the reason. Like the Nazis of old, Hamas believes in exterminating the Jews. I've stated this several times.
    Last edited by Swordsman4; 4th January 2017 at 10:49 PM.

  23. #6273
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    Can everyone please report this guy? He's using his posts to say how much he hates Islam, and I'm pretty sure that's violating quite a few forum rules.
    I support: Mr. Barrack Obama, Ms. Hillary Clinton, Liberalism in all its forms, LGBT rights, pro-choice, affordable healthcare, Social Security, a Path to Citizenship, and civil rights.

    I oppose: Mr. Donald Trump, Conservativism, corporate greed, austerity, the NRA, pro-lifers, fundamentalists, and the death penalty.

    I regret: NONE of those views.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lemoncatpower View Post
    wow thank you for this. I better understand what is happening out there now thanks to you!
    Do you have an opinion personally on the matter?

    Seems like they should all take equality classes :P
    Thanks - that's only a very brief look at the legal issues surrounding the settlement from documents linked on wikipedia. In truth I don't have a great enough understanding of either the history of the conflict or the International Law to form an opinion I can have confidence in.

    Quote Originally Posted by lemoncatpower View Post
    I'm not saying religion is the sole cause, but religion is definitely included in this situation.
    Religion doesn't play that large a role in the conflict at all. The core of the conflict are over control of land and nationhood.

    http://www.vox.com/cards/israel-pale...about-religion

    This video gives a good overview of the conflict: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRYZjOuUnlU

    As to why America has such a close relationship with Israel I'm not sure. My understanding, and this may be wrong, that Israel was one of it's allies during the cold war ear that it supported as part of the containment policy. The Americans also provide a large amount of financial aid to Israel which the Israeli's use to purchase US military equipment.
    Last edited by Pikachu52; 5th January 2017 at 3:19 AM.

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    I'm not defending Palestine either, both of these countries are doing horrible things to each other, and treating one as the good guy and one as the bad guy is only making things worse at this point. Remember the IRA did the same thing where they would bomb places while warning civilians, and that doesn't make the civilians they killed any less horrible.

    Granted there's a weird whitewashing of the IRA as a terrorist group recently. I do wonder how much of that is a racial thing since that was pre-9/11.

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