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Thread: Community POTW #040

  1. #1
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    Default Community POTW #040

    Time for the next week, and we have a classic



    It's Quagsire, the loveable Water/Ground-type Pokémon. With considerable bulk, it is capable of a lot

    http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-xy/195.shtml

    Go nuts

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    I always found Quagsire and Wooper very annoying...

    Quagsire @ Choice Band
    Ability: Unaware
    EVs: 252 HP, 252 Atk, 4 SDef
    Nature: Adamant
    Ice Punch
    Earthquake
    Stone Edge
    Brick Break
    Each of these moves do decent damage and are for coverage. Brick Break can be used to break screens.
    Last edited by TurtwigAndSquirtle; 27th July 2014 at 3:51 PM.
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    Why? Why does the adorableness that is Wooper evolve into this ugly thing? Ugliness aside, Quagsire is quite capable.

    It seems to be a hard rule that Water-Ground types are bulky. Swampert, Gastrodon, Quagsire are all shining examples of bulky pokemon. While 95/85/65 defenses may only be above average physically and below average defensively, that is not where the true worth of Quagsire’s bulkiness lies. Nor is it its typing though a lone weakness to Grass vs 1 immunity and 4 resistances is certainly very good. It lies in the ability Unaware. This allows Quagsire to resist all sorts of setup sweepers. Dragon Dance Kingdra? Blocked. Swords Dance Talonflame? All washed up. In the right setting, Unaware Quagsire is a threat.

    Booster Denial
    Quagsire (Unaware)
    Item: Leftovers
    -Recover
    -Yawn/Haze
    -Earthquake
    -Waterfall/Toxic/Stockpile
    Nature: Careful (+SDEF, -SATK)
    EVs: 252 HP/252 DEF/4 SDEF OR 252 HP/196 SDEF/56 DEF

    The premise of this set is simple: Tank “boosted” hits and do whatever you want to them. Recover is a necessity, greatly increasing Quagsire’s survivability. Yawn and Haze are two excellent P/hazing options that Quagsire has allowing it to sabotage setup sweepers that it cannot take out on its own. Earthquake is a mandatory STAB move and has an excellent resume to boot. Your last move is up to preference: Waterfall is an alternative STAB move that can hit foes that Earthquake cannot, Toxic is to emphasize the Stalling nature of Quagsire and Stockpile is an effective defensive boosting option, as your opponent cannot match you boost for boost because of Unaware (don’t use with Haze).

    Other Options

    -Amnesia/Curse
    Other boosting attacks that Quagsire can use: one patching its horrid SDEF, the other making it more dangerous on the physical front.

    -Swagger
    Just evil: your opponent receives double powered confusion, while getting no benefit against Quagsire

    -Stone Edge/Body Slam
    Other physical options

    -Aqua Tail/Ice Punch
    Other physical options, but requires transfer

    -Acid Spray/Eerie Impulse
    Two of the sabotaging options Quagsire has, though cannot be used with Unaware due to the fact that Quagsire will ignore its own efforts.

    Countering Mud

    Quagsire is far from perfect as a wall. Grass Attacks will maim if not end Quagsire, even more so if they are special. Strong special sweepers can put down Quagsire quickly, especially given how few of them actually rely on boosting moves. Quagsire is slow as hell sitting at a Base 35 SPD. Also if you don't use any setup sweepers, Quagsire loses its raison d'etre. Toxic and Burning compromise Quagsire's bulk, with the later hurting its offense as well.

    Finally, you might be Unaware of this but Quagsire receives stiff competition from Clefable as an Unaware wall.
    Last edited by KillerDraco; 27th July 2014 at 3:49 PM. Reason: Merged double post: Warning given
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    "This is tricky. As Darkrai is fast and will almost certainly put you to sleep, you may have to rely on Pokémon with Lum Berries or Chesto Berries attached in order to survive the sleep. Same with Pokémon with Insomnia or Vital Spirit. Problem is, those Pokémon mostly can't take out Darkrai, except maybe Primeape. So, what you need to do is go in for the kill with various Fighting-type, Fairy-type or Bug-type moves. As such, Mega Heracross is the ultimate Darkrai counter. It has powerful Attack, and great moves like Pin Missile, Close Combat and Brick Break which would utterly destroy a Darkrai. You can even have it know Sleep Talk if you're planning to use it against a Darkrai. Alternatively, Fairy-type Arceus with Judgment will also hit Darkrai hard and fast, so don't be afraid to use that."

    i'm so done



    Quote Originally Posted by Mestorn View Post
    Why? Why does the adorableness that is Wooper evolve into this ugly thing? Ugliness aside, Quagsire is quite capable.
    Quagsire is still cute though ;_;




    Anyways, since the set above me pretty much covers Quagsire's capabilities, I'll just go into more detail. My theory is that Quagsire only because OU because of all the Baton Pass teams that used to be running around. Nevertheless, Quagsire still does work in OU, because many Pokemon in OU are capable of setting up, and Quagsire makes quick work of them. It works best on a team that alone is not capable of handling set-up sweepers, such as Dragonite, Pinsir, Tyranitar, etc. Scald should also be given a mention because of it's burn chance. Even though Quagsire's physical attack is obviously better than it's special attack, Scald is still a good utility move rather than an offensive move. If running Scald, Quagsire can use a Relaxed or Sassy nature, because it's pathetic base speed needs no investment at all. Quagsire is outspeed by every Pokemon in the OU tier except for Ferrothorn, which doesn't matter because Ferrothorn is easily a direct counter or check to Quagsire, which can OHKO it with Power Whip, or scare it out, letting Ferrothorn get up free hazards or Leech Seed. While Clefable is also another Unaware user, Quagsire is set apart from it because of Haze, which removes the Stat changes all in all, in case they are still able to beat Quagsire because of it's below average defenses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mestorn View Post
    -Swagger
    Just evil: your opponent receives double powered confusion, while getting no benefit against Quagsire
    That is definitely a fantastic idea, but sadly Swagger Clause exists
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    Quote Originally Posted by Checks and Counters
    As Darkrai is fast and will almost certainly put you to sleep, you may have to rely on Pokémon with Lum Berries or Chesto Berries attached in order to survive the sleep. Same with Pokémon with Insomnia or Vital Spirit. Problem is, those Pokémon mostly can't take out Darkrai, except maybe Primeape.
    Same with Pokémon with Insomnia or Vital Spirit. Problem is, those Pokémon mostly can't take out Darkrai, except maybe Primeape.
    except maybe Primeape
    PRIMEAPE
    yep, I'm quitting serebii

    All complaints aside, Quagsire is actually a very underrated Pokemon and a staple on OU stall teams. The only other Unaware user in OU is Clefable, who, while far better much of the time, has worse physical bulk and is unable to get past Bisharp and Mega Charizard X. This is Quagsire's niche, getting past the boosting sweepers that Clefable fails to beat.

    Quagsire @ Leftovers
    Ability: Unaware
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Relaxed Nature
    - Scald
    - Earthquake
    - Toxic
    - Recover

    The only Quagsire set you'll see. Only use this thing on full stall, as unlike Clefable it has absolutely no offensive presence and is a total momentum killer.

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    Quagsire, once the only Pokemon (besides its pre-evolution) to have the water/ground typing has had trouble in recent years with the introduction of several other water/ground type Pokemon. Despite that, Quagsire should still be considered on your team.

    The Swag Machine
    Quagsire with Leftovers
    Unaware
    252 HP, 252 Atk, 4 Sp. Def
    Adamant Nature

    -Waterfall
    -Ice Punch
    -Earthquake
    -Swagger

    This is probably the most common Quagsire set and for good reason. With Swagger, Unaware, and good Attack Quagsire can wreck teams if your opponent is unprepared. Unfortunately that is the big problem Quagsire faces. There's not much it can do anymore because it's so predictable. Most people know right away when they see Quagsire what it is going to do.

    Checks and Counters
    Anything that can hit Quagsire on the special side is a serious threat. While most Grass types are not going to want to take an Ice Punch, their speed ensures they won't have to worry about it. Ice types with Freeze Dry like Lapras or Cryogonal can easily OHKO Quagsire without any investment in Sp. Def. Even with, Quagsire has low chance of surviving a single Freeze Dry. Cryogonal especially is a huge threat given its high speed and good Sp. Atk. Mega Charizard Y makes a great teammate for Quagsire. Being able to take out things like Lapras and Ferrothorn (two of Quagsire's biggest threats) makes it a very useful teammate.
    Last edited by DasManiac; 27th July 2014 at 6:58 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DasManiac View Post
    Quagsire, once the only Pokemon (besides its pre-evolution) to have the water/ground typing has had trouble in recent years with the introduction of several other water/ground type Pokemon. Despite that, Quagsire should still be considered on your team.

    The Swag Machine
    Quagsire with Leftovers
    Unaware
    252 HP, 252 Atk, 4 Sp. Def
    Adamant Nature

    -Waterfall
    -Ice Punch
    -Earthquake
    -Swagger

    This is probably the most common Quagsire set and for good reason. With Swagger, Unaware, and good Attack Quagsire can wreck teams if your opponent is unprepared. Unfortunately that is the big problem Quagsire faces. There's not much it can do anymore because it's so predictable.

    Checks and Counters
    Anything that can hit Quagsire on the special side is a serious threat. While most Grass types are not going to want to take an Ice Punch, their speed ensures they won't have to worry about it. Ice types with Freeze Dry like Lapras or Cryogonal can easily OHKO Quagsire without any investment in Sp. Def. Even with, Quagsire has low chance of surviving a single Freeze Dry. Cryogonal especially is a huge threat given its high speed and good Sp. Atk. Mega Charizard Y makes a great teammate for Quagsire. Being able to take out things like Lapras and Ferrothorn (two of Quagsire's biggest threats) makes it a very useful teammate.
    Sadly Swagger Clause exists, and thus Swagsire (THIS WAS A HORRIBLE SET EVEN BEFORE SWAGGER CLAUSE SO STOP MENTIONING IT TYVM) is no more. Only use it as a defensive wall with Unaware. That's the only use of it where it isn't horribly outclassed by every other bulky Water and Ground in the metagame. Freeze-Dry is also unimportant as Lapras, Cryogonal, Aurorus, and Articuno are all god-awful in OU, where Quagsire resides. The only notable user of it is Mamoswine, but it 2HKOs with Life Orb Earthquake anyway, so it's not significant.

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    Quagsire @ Leftovers
    Ability: Unaware
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Impish/Careful/Adamant Nature
    - Curse
    - Amnesia
    - Waterfall
    - Rest/Recover

    By all means, Quagsire has average stats that do little to offset its 4x weakness to grass. On the other hand, grass is its only weakness which means everything else (save freeze-dry which it is also 4x weak to) will do neutral damage at best. This gives it the opportunity to set up its defenses at your opponent's expense.

    Quagsire will need leftovers to survive while setting up. Impish is recommended for surviving physical attacks, Careful for special, and Adamant is for sweeping power once it finishes setting up. Thanks to unaware, it can worry less about your opponent setting up buffs and just worry about surviving. The choice is yours in regards to recovery moves: Rest to shrug off status at the cost of two turns, and Recover for 50% healing with the risk of status vulnerability. Waterfall is a recommended attack move as few pokemon are immune to water-type attacks.

    For maximum profit, ensure it stays alive by getting rid of all grass types and freeze-dry users and you have a capable sweeper in your hands.
    My current (Would-be) Team



    Yup, pretty borderline.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Imposter View Post
    Sadly Swagger Clause exists, and thus Swagsire (THIS WAS A HORRIBLE SET EVEN BEFORE SWAGGER CLAUSE SO STOP MENTIONING IT TYVM) is no more. Only use it as a defensive wall with Unaware. That's the only use of it where it isn't horribly outclassed by every other bulky Water and Ground in the metagame. Freeze-Dry is also unimportant as Lapras, Cryogonal, Aurorus, and Articuno are all god-awful in OU, where Quagsire resides. The only notable user of it is Mamoswine, but it 2HKOs with Life Orb Earthquake anyway, so it's not significant.
    I'm not talking about Smogon or Showdown. I'm talking about actual online play. If you want to play with tiers go right ahead but I don't and neither do a lot of people. Tiers and Clauses apply solely to Smogon (with the exception of the VGC's few clauses).

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    Quote Originally Posted by DasManiac View Post
    I'm not talking about Smogon or Showdown. I'm talking about actual online play. If you want to play with tiers go right ahead but I don't and neither do a lot of people. Tiers and Clauses apply solely to Smogon (with the exception of the VGC's few clauses).
    The Pokemon of the Week follows Smogon's ruleset, except for the VGC section. As such, we should be discussing its usage in Smogon's metagames. Besides, even in untiered play, Swagger is an unreliable strategy at best and Quagsire's most optimal role is using its fair physical bulk, Unaware, and Recover to wall physical attackers. There are better things to pull off Swagger anyway, should you wish to lose the respect of your friends.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Imposter View Post
    The Pokemon of the Week follows Smogon's ruleset, except for the VGC section. As such, we should be discussing its usage in Smogon's metagames. Besides, even in untiered play, Swagger is an unreliable strategy at best and Quagsire's most optimal role is using its fair physical bulk, Unaware, and Recover to wall physical attackers. There are better things to pull off Swagger anyway, should you wish to lose the respect of your friends.
    If I recall correctly, the POTW was created because Serebii disliked Smogon's rules. That's the story I've read and have seen no indication otherwise. The POTW collaboration thread says nothing about Smogon. It says you can post any idea. I see no indication that we are to follow Smogon rules.

  12. #12

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    Sets on the PotW can be for Smogon's tiering system, Wifi, VGC, whatever. You just have to specify which it's meant for, since each style of battle has wildly different rules and formats, most notably that VGC is a doubles format, Smogon has clauses/tiers, etc. By default though, most people on these forums will assume a post is to be used in a tiering singles format, i.e., Smogon.

    That said...

    Quote Originally Posted by DasManiac View Post
    The Swag Machine
    Quagsire with Leftovers
    Unaware
    252 HP, 252 Atk, 4 Sp. Def
    Adamant Nature

    -Waterfall
    -Ice Punch
    -Earthquake
    -Swagger
    This set is still pretty crummy, especially in the Doubles-oriented VGC. Quagsire's tank sets are completely outclassed by Swampert, whose stats are overall better. Quagsire lives for stall; base 85 attack makes its offensive sets pretty poor, and "Swagsire" is a gimmick and nothing more. It's very susceptible to Sub and Taunt as well, given it's so slow. Its sole niche is its decent physical bulk (95/85 physical defenses are solid), Unaware, and Recover allowing it to check and stall out a lot of boosting sweepers, most notably MegaZard X not carrying Outrage.
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    My favorite pokemon getting the spotligth oh god.

    Quagsire bulk isnt stellar but with his typing it can get the job done.

    Quaggy is an stellar anti DD pokemon to everthing not named outrage MzardX. Or anything holding a lifeorb with a physical stab move of 120 getting fired from 110 or more physical atk stat or moldbreaker...but thats only seen on megagyara almost no one runs haxorus these days. In wich case he can survive after sr damage and get lefties back to a safe recover treeshold. His typing blesses him with a good imunity and resistance to SR, but suffers from a similar trouble with cleffable being a grounded mon is hurt bt spikes and tspikes upon switch in hindering its long term usage. Not to mention a trolly speed tier that offers few options outside of maxing defences to do its job. Leaving him vulnerable to statuslike burns and toxic. I also need to tell that quagy needs leftovers to avoid getting on 2hko range for the things he is required to stop, he hates Knock off for that very reason. And unlike cleff he cant pass wishes.

    Ill try to avoid talking about cleffable and even ditto as answers to physical setup sweepers since they fit different teams. Ill stick to what he can do.

    Quaggy got 2interesting boosting options on curse and stockpile. And 2 recovery options in recover and rest. Im going to say this as clearly as i can...curse and rest are bad on this guy despite having unaware repetitive hits will bring youvdown with ease specially on quaggy wich most of the time begs to be taunted specially if it isnt running scald. Stockpile is good on paper but it will leave you prone to status and most likely locked on a mono attacking set. Try to capitalize on recover imediatep...well recovery and lefties to stal down your enemies. Talking about stall as almost every pokemon on the game this guy got acces to toxic, and most of the time this will be your main source of damaging your enemies eithervthat or some lucky scald burns.

    Im going to be as clear as posible quagsire us not the kind of mon youll find yourself worrying about countering nor building around him. Quaggy is something that can fit to your team depending on your needs. Ge has some synerhy with common clerics and its SR resistance can be useful. But he is a stalish check mon at best. With that in mind if you want something imune to electric attacks that can stop some conventional set up sweeper while having a cleric for your own sweepers your team might be able to use this guy. One last thing AV or CB quaggy are pretty gimmicky i wouldnt recommend using them hpfire isnt even usable against ferrothorn not with that spa, you migth try it but its still somewhat disapointing.

    The set i find myself using is

    Quagsire @leftovers
    Relaxed\Impish
    252 hp 252 def 4spdef
    Earthquake
    Scald\Protect\Stockpile\Yawn\Haze
    Toxic\Yawn
    Recover.

    Self explanatory. Relaxed if you feel like using Scald, otherwise impish. Protect can fetch you some extra leftovers recovery and a turn of toxic as well as scouting for banded mons trying to trick, or 2hko you on the spot, Stockpile for a poorsman cosmic power clefable with different typing. And Yawn or Haze to deal with some awkward situations like forcing out mons hiding behind a sub or taking away boost from an ingrained ot suction cup mon. With the complex ban of BP this isnt very apealing and lets be honest haze quaggy was only a time buyer at best, regardless yawn still got some legit uses like allowing you to buy some switching momentumor forcin a mon to sleep.

    Quaggy is a fun and adorable mon to use, he is my personal favorite in every silver and SS run i do he is just too amazing to ignore... Not to mention the epic headbutt at the battling sequence of the third movie, afterall just look at that cutie smiling...where was I? Oh rigth if you can fit quaggy in your team give him a chance he migth surprise you.

    Sorry for the bad grammar and some horrible mistakes it is hard to writte under hype on a cellphone screen.
    Last edited by Disaster_Lord; 29th July 2014 at 3:38 AM.
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    Would it be possible to include some comparisons between Quagsire (unaware + recover), Gastrodon (storm drain + recover) and Swampert (better bulk and attack stat) in the POTW article?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 13_luckynumber View Post
    Would it be possible to include some comparisons between Quagsire (unaware + recover), Gastrodon (storm drain + recover) and Swampert (better bulk and attack stat) in the POTW article?
    It would only be a brief mention if anything, since the focus is to be on Quagsire. Nevertheless, for emphasis, Quagsire's niche over its competitors is a physically bulky set with Unaware allowing it to stall out boosting sweepers. Gastrodon runs a better specially bulky set, and Storm Drain let it be a good anti-rain Pokemon, especially last generation, since it's not only immune to Water, but it can also fire off decently powerful Scalds/Earth Powers after a boost from Storm Drain. That said, with permanent rain gone, it fell all the way into RU. Swampert on the other hand has the best tank sets with its bulk and power, so it functions better on balanced/bulky offense since it lacks the reliable recovery to stall. If you're gonna use Quagsire, it absolutely has to be for Stall; Swampert completely outclasses tank/offensive sets, and although Quagsire has Water Absorb, Vaporeon and Gastrodon work a water-immune set better. Unaware is Quagsire's only real niche in OU, but it's a good one for Stall, given it can put a damper on those that try to set up on Stall teams.
    Last edited by KillerDraco; 28th July 2014 at 6:13 AM.
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    On a sude note some people are running infestation on their Quaggys. Does it deserve a mention? I mean unaware yawn protect infestation recover quaggy seems like a gimmick horribly shut down by taunt...but it is a trend apparently.
    Last edited by Disaster_Lord; 28th July 2014 at 8:33 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Disaster_Lord View Post
    On a sude note some people are running infestation on their Quaggys. Does it deserve a mention? I mean unaware yawn protect infestation recover quaggy seems like a gimmick horribly shut down by taunt...but it is a trend apparently.
    Because it's a pretty good one, sorta. I used to run a set of swagger/protect/infestation/recover, and it surprisingly had amazing synergy with virtually any defensive team and required little effort to use effectively (aside from clearing out the grass type users, which is rarely a problem with the only "good" grass types being in ubers). Yawn or toxic could replace swagger, albeit they wouldn't be as good with yawn having only the "stun" effect, toxic dealing the passive damage alongside infestation, whereas swagger does both while also being able to hit poison types/sleep-talk abusers.
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    Quagsire @ Leftovers
    Nature: Relaxed
    Ability: Unaware
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
    ~Scald
    ~Earthquake
    ~Recover
    ~Toxic

    Your typical Quagsire set. :)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mye View Post
    Because it's a pretty good one, sorta. I used to run a set of swagger/protect/infestation/recover, and it surprisingly had amazing synergy with virtually any defensive team and required little effort to use effectively (aside from clearing out the grass type users, which is rarely a problem with the only "good" grass types being in ubers). Yawn or toxic could replace swagger, albeit they wouldn't be as good with yawn having only the "stun" effect, toxic dealing the passive damage alongside infestation, whereas swagger does both while also being able to hit poison types/sleep-talk abusers.
    As long as we clarify quagy with swagger is for ubers im fine with it.
    Who said moe cant be Gar?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Disaster_Lord View Post
    As long as we clarify quagy with swagger is for ubers im fine with it.
    Sorta. I was using "Swag-sire" in UU back when they were trying to adjust the tiers. With swagger universally banned from all of smogon's tiers for some reason, toxic/yawn have to fill that last moveslot as any other move leaves it heavily outclassed by something else.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mye View Post
    Sorta. I was using "Swag-sire" in UU back when they were trying to adjust the tiers. With swagger universally banned from all of smogon's tiers for some reason, toxic/yawn have to fill that last moveslot as any other move leaves it heavily outclassed by something else.
    Glad to see its now an universal clause. This guy could go from fun cute mon stoping sweeps to antifun rng abuser.
    Who said moe cant be Gar?

    Fc Ixchen: 0559-7194-5664
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    I HATE the Hoenn region and its winguls with a passion that can burn steel beams. But i love move tutors, Lets see how this goes...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Disaster_Lord View Post
    As long as we clarify quagy with swagger is for ubers im fine with it.
    No, there should be no mention of tiers. This is not Smogon.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by DasManiac View Post
    No, there should be no mention of tiers. This is not Smogon.
    We kinda have tiers here. Regular and uber


    I'll never understand why is swagplay that popular. Stalling is the last strategy a trainer should use.

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  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by venom1950 View Post
    We kinda have tiers here. Regular and uber


    I'll never understand why is swagplay that popular. Stalling is the last strategy a trainer should use.
    It's because people just generally prefer no skill over requiring a lot of it. If you could run your entire life off of pressing just two buttons over say having to lift 30Lbs of weight for 6 hours a day, you'd always choose that option. It's the same thing with pokemon, as wins (no matter how easy, unearned, and devoid of skill they are to get) are still wins.
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  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by DasManiac View Post
    No, there should be no mention of tiers. This is not Smogon.
    Serebii's competitive section uses Smogon tiers by default in things such as tournaments, and while the POTW is open to various tiering systems and rulesets, I know for a fact that I have personally used Smogon tiers as a loose basis when writing about lower tier Pokemon. Serebii has told me in the past that he is just fine with this as long as the content isn't dominated with Smogon-based information (i.e. I generally mention the tier's name once to give the context and then leave it at that). Besides, if there's one thing I've learned from places like here and GameFAQs, it's that casual players would much rather see a lower tier Pokemon be given a more positive article in the context of a lower Smogon tier than a negative article in the context of a standard metagame like Smogon/PO OU or Battle Spot. Heck, when Blue Harvest wrote the Delphox article way back when (it was quite a negative article since Delphox is not very good in standard environments), there were kids on GameFAQs asking her why she didn't write an article based on a lower tier that Delphox might be better in and thus have a more positive article, despite the fact that none of the lower tiers were even established yet.

    Now, can we please stop arguing about Smogon tiers and whether or not we should use them? It's ultimately pointless and only serves to encourage the divide between Smogon and Serebii as if there's actually any real competition between the sites.

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