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Thread: Community POTW #146

  1. #26
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    I'm not going to push for Z Darmantian, but I thought it would be nice just as a perspective view.

    Ultimately, I guess it depends on what the intent of PotW was used for. Is it more for giving battle advice, or is it more of a fun article to read each Sunday.

    I don't want to impose on this, but I would like to see it. I can't speak for other people, though, so you can feel free to toss the idea.

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  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archstaraptor View Post
    I mention both the above walls mainly to point out that base 55 speed can be good enough.Donphan,Quagsire, and other rock/ground types used across formats that wall Darmanitan - SF follow the trend of being rather heavy,very weak on the special defence and being outsped and threatened by Darmanitan - Z.
    You're only able to hit these things in the unlikely scenario you ended up under half health without getting outright KO'd in the process, which given Darmanitan's bad defenses and reliance on a heavy recoil move isn't that reliable. Oh, and you have to give up Sheer Force to do it. Trading 33% damage and lack of Life Orb recoil on your Flare Blitzes and Rock Slides for the ability to hit Rhyperior and Donphan in some circumstances is not a worthwhile trade-off in any circumstance.

    Even if you do KO something, now you've got a Pokemon at less than half health with one of the worst possible defensive typings. You're sacrificing Darmanitan's wallbreaking prowess for the unreliable ability to catch some of his checks off guard, instead of relying on your other five teammates to cover these threats.
    Last edited by Divine Retribution; 12th August 2016 at 10:29 AM.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Auraninja View Post
    Ultimately, I guess it depends on what the intent of PotW was used for. Is it more for giving battle advice, or is it more of a fun article to read each Sunday.
    The PotW has always been a part of the competitive subforum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Archstaraptor View Post
    There are definite scenarios where swapping your offenses around mid match would be useful - you might choose to run grass knot to get past physical walls like rhyperior (ohko without any investment) or slowbro (80 % chance 2hko without leftovers,without any investment,though the matchup favours slowbro) more easily,feats that would be difficult for the sheer force variant.
    It's worth noting that a U-turn from a banded jolly SF Darmanitan deals about the same amount of damage,but with rocks on the field,you're taking damage every time you use it.
    I mention both the above walls mainly to point out that base 55 speed can be good enough.Donphan,Quagsire, and other rock/ground types used across formats that wall Darmanitan - SF follow the trend of being rather heavy,very weak on the special defence and being outsped and threatened by Darmanitan - Z.

    Not denying that screens / wish support / grassy terrain would be paramount for its use - Darmanitan still threatens more things in its standard form compared to its Zen mode,because it's faster.Combining the strengths of both forms,however,and effectively managing the form changes, would make it a more versatile threat.
    The problem is switching to Zen Mode is not so simple as Mega Evolving or using Relic Song on Meloetta. Given it is tied to your HP, you don't have a reliable way to control it. The only way you can have any sort of control over it is Belly Drum, which of course has its fair share of problems given sacrificing half your HP is only really viable on a predicted switch since it opens you up for KOs. Plus, with that nasty Stealth Rock weakness, your hazard control has to be aggressive or you'll end up at 25% HP, which is VERY easily revenge killed. Any type of prior damage also throws a wrench into this. And without Belly Drum, you're at the mercy of your opponents to get you below 50%, which is even less reliable given Darmanitan's poor bulk makes it easy to just outright KO.

    I mean, in the case of the Rhyperior example, your only option is Belly Drumming as it switches in. If it tries to "switch to Zen Mode" while Rhyperior is out, then Earthquake can pretty cleanly KO it.

    44+ Atk Rhyperior Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Darmanitan-Z: 314-372 (75.8 - 89.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    ...And I should hope it's well known that the base form is 1HKO'ed, but I digress-

    The fact that Zen Mode can only activate at 50% HP or lower is what truly damns it. If it was an alternate form that could be more readily toggled, you might have something there. Heck, even if it was an alternate form a-la the Rotom forms, it'd be another story altogether. But considering you can only utilize Zen Mode if it's lost half its HP... that's just a pretty big issue. To put it in perspective, with max HP (252 EVs), Zen Mode Darmanitan's activation can only have 207 HP at most. That's an effective base 33 HP.

    The amount of support needed to be able to utilize Zen Mode properly is staggering, in addition to the fact that you cripple the usefulness of Darmanitan's base form due to the lack of Sheer Force and sacrificing coverage options. It's one thing to try and have a move to check your counters, but you really sacrifice Darmanitan's potential in the process to the point where it's counter-productive. As DR mentioned, you have five other teammates that can help Darmanitan deal with its counters, without minimizing its damage output. There's just too much liability involved in trying to make Zen Mode work, especially since at the end of the day... it's still a wallbreaker since it's too slow to sweep, and that much setup and team support just for a wallbreaker is a bit much, since wouldn't it be better to try and support a "win condition", i.e., a sweep?
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  4. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by KillerDraco View Post

    The problem is switching to Zen Mode is not so simple as Mega Evolving or using Relic Song on Meloetta. Given it is tied to your HP, you don't have a reliable way to control it. The only way you can have any sort of control over it is Belly Drum, which of course has its fair share of problems given sacrificing half your HP is only really viable on a predicted switch since it opens you up for KOs. Plus, with that nasty Stealth Rock weakness, your hazard control has to be aggressive or you'll end up at 25% HP, which is VERY easily revenge killed. Any type of prior damage also throws a wrench into this. And without Belly Drum, you're at the mercy of your opponents to get you below 50%, which is even less reliable given Darmanitan's poor bulk makes it easy to just outright KO.

    The fact that Zen Mode can only activate at 50% HP or lower is what truly damns it. If it was an alternate form that could be more readily toggled, you might have something there. Heck, even if it was an alternate form a-la the Rotom forms, it'd be another story altogether. But considering you can only utilize Zen Mode if it's lost half its HP... that's just a pretty big issue. To put it in perspective, with max HP (252 EVs), Zen Mode Darmanitan's activation can only have 207 HP at most. That's an effective base 33 HP.

    The amount of support needed to be able to utilize Zen Mode properly is staggering, in addition to the fact that you cripple the usefulness of Darmanitan's base form due to the lack of Sheer Force and sacrificing coverage options. It's one thing to try and have a move to check your counters, but you really sacrifice Darmanitan's potential in the process to the point where it's counter-productive. As DR mentioned, you have five other teammates that can help Darmanitan deal with its counters, without minimizing its damage output. There's just too much liability involved in trying to make Zen Mode work, especially since at the end of the day... it's still a wallbreaker since it's too slow to sweep, and that much setup and team support just for a wallbreaker is a bit much, since wouldn't it be better to try and support a "win condition", i.e., a sweep?
    Running substitute instead of belly drum would mitigate the risk in transforming into zen mode,and would provide a shield to attacks that would OHKO Darmanitan. Belly drum is crazy risky unless the user has bulk and/or sitrus,and as has been said already,zen mode would make no worthwhile use of the maximised attack stat.
    You are both correct in saying that running zen mode hinders its sweeping capabilities.But what if this darmanitan took on a more supportive role,and was not one of the dedicated sweepers on a team? 140 base attack + 95 speed with strong STAB and coverage is great,regardless of items and abilities. The fact that SF darmanitan with a lifeorb hits with a more awesome power is undeniable,but perhaps it is overkill in certain situations,and moreover,people prepare for these sets alone.

    A zen mode darmanitan could be used to effectively lure in threats to standard darmanitan,and by extension,threats to pokemon like standard darmanitan: fellow physical sweepers.

    People expect a SheerForce set,they switch in a sturdy physical wall to stop it.And then darmanitan sets up a sub ,preparing zen mode,and shielding itself from harm for a turn.A physical wall typically doesn't take special attacks well,and is significantly weakened by it,to the extent that the physical sweeper on the team can now make more progress in dismantling the team.

    As an example:
    (252 Spe,perhaps Naive/Hasty nature)
    @leftovers/ life orb
    -Flare Blitz/Fire Punch
    -Substitute
    -Heatwave/Overheat/Focus blast
    -Grass Knot

    Regardless of what you do with the remaining 252 evs,the set threatens would be switchins to both choiced and lifeorbed versions of darmanitan,and combined with entry hazards ,threaten ohkos in many instances. A fellow teammate or item can be used to heal HP to 51+%, and restore it to its standard,faster form after the crucial damage to the opponent's team is done.
    Last edited by Archstaraptor; 13th August 2016 at 3:27 AM.

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  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archstaraptor View Post
    Running substitute instead of belly drum would mitigate the risk in transforming into zen mode,and would provide a shield to attacks that would OHKO Darmanitan. Belly drum is crazy risky unless the user has bulk and/or sitrus,and as has been said already,zen mode would make no worthwhile use of the maximised attack stat.
    You are both correct in saying that running zen mode hinders its sweeping capabilities.But what if this darmanitan took on a more supportive role,and was not one of the dedicated sweepers on a team? 140 base attack + 95 speed with strong STAB and coverage is great,regardless of items and abilities. The fact that SF darmanitan with a lifeorb hits with a more awesome power is undeniable,but perhaps it is overkill in certain situations,and moreover,people prepare for these sets alone.

    A zen mode darmanitan could be used to effectively lure in threats to standard darmanitan,and by extension,threats to pokemon like standard darmanitan: fellow physical sweepers.

    People expect a SheerForce set,they switch in a sturdy physical wall to stop it.And then darmanitan sets up a sub ,preparing zen mode,and shielding itself from harm for a turn.A physical wall typically doesn't take special attacks well,and is significantly weakened by it,to the extent that the physical sweeper on the team can now make more progress in dismantling the team.

    As an example:
    (252 Spe,perhaps Naive/Hasty nature)
    @leftovers/ life orb
    -Flare Blitz/Fire Punch
    -Substitute
    -Heatwave/Overheat/Focus blast
    -Grass Knot

    Regardless of what you do with the remaining 252 evs,the set threatens would be switchins to both choiced and lifeorbed versions of darmanitan,and combined with entry hazards ,threaten ohkos in many instances. A fellow teammate or item can be used to heal HP to 51+%, and restore it to its standard,faster form after the crucial damage to the opponent's team is done.
    Don't really understand how this supports anything, or actually accomplishes anything that, say, Infernape can't do better. Or really any other mixed attacker.

    Furthermore you haven't fixed the problem of Zen Mode's unreliability. You can't switch in on anything and once you do activate Zen Mode you're stuck with one of the slowest Pokemon in the game at <50% HP with a horrible defensive typing that's just begging Tyranitar to come in and Pursuit it.
    Last edited by Divine Retribution; 13th August 2016 at 5:22 AM.

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