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Thread: Community POTW #155

  1. #1
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    Default Community POTW #155

    Time for the next Pokémon and we have an absolute classic



    It's the classic fighting ape, Primeape

    http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-xy/057.shtml

    Go nuts

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    Infamous for being a Darkrai counter in ubers due to its ability Vital Spirit and the fact that it OHKO's Darkrai with Close Combat even with a neutral nature:
    252 Atk Primeape Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Darkrai: 368-434 (130.9 - 154.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Darkrai cannot OHKO Primeape in return without a critical.

    Other than this, there's no reason to use the pig monkey Pokémon outside the tier it's in.
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    I actually have a lot of respect for this guy, because he carried me through the final match of a RandBats tourny once, haha. Unfortunately, he suffers from having rather average stats compared to Fighting types like Conkeldurr and Terrakion, and lacks a good secondary STAB to complement his Fighting STABs, as things like Terrakion and Infernape possess. His bulk is also pretty terrible, and his Speed, while fantastic for his tier, is too low for the upper tiers. His movepool also isn't as deep as some other Fighting types, although he does get enough coverage options like the elemental Punches and Stone Edge, and interesting utility moves in Encore, Punishment, and U-Turn.

    I've never actually used him outside of RandBats and my NU experience is lacking, so I won't post a set this time, but I hear he makes a great Scarf user thanks to his access to U-Turn and good Speed tier for NU.
    Last edited by Divine Retribution; 9th October 2016 at 3:21 PM.

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    It's worth noting that Mankey is at least viable in LC, as it is the fastest fighting type in the tier, reaching 17 speed unboosted, and with a Choice Scarf, hitting 25. This allows his Scarf set to outspeed Tirtouga after a Shell Smash. However, it's also one of the frailest fighting types, and unlike fellow top tier titans Timburr and Mienfoo, it lacks Knock Off, which is huge for both coverage and pressuring switch-ins. As a result, Mankey tends to be more of a niche pick, but here's what it looks like when it is used:

    Mankey @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Defiant / Vital Spirit
    Level: 5
    EVs: 36 HP / 196 Atk / 76 SpD / 196 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Close Combat
    - U-turn
    - Earthquake
    - Gunk Shot / Ice Punch / Night Slash

    Close Combat is obviously Mankey's best STAB, which should go without saying at this point. U-Turn allows Mankey to pivot out, which also helps to scout for switches. Earthquake may have some redundant coverage with Close Combat, but it's necessary to ensure that Croagunk and Trubbish don't wall Mankey. It also hits Chinchou reasonably hard as well. The final moveslot is filler, and dependent on what you wish to cover. Gunk Shot deals well with fairy types, most notably Snubbull and Spritzee. Ice Punch lets it deal with Foongus, who otherwise walls it and can beat it 1v1. Finally, Night Slash allows it to deal with Ghost types who're immune/resistant to Earthquake, most notably Gastly and to a lesser extent Pumpkaboo, since Pumpkaboo doesn't appreciate Ice Punch either.

    Also worth noting is that it's got two reasonably good abilities; Defiant lets it punish Snubbull and Growlithe if they think that Intimidate will help neuter Mankey, while Vital Spirits lets it absorb Spore from Foongus (although without Ice Punch, you won't be doing too much to Foongus in return). Jolly Nature and 196 Speed EVs let Mankey reach 25 speed with its Choice Scarf attached (17 unboosted), which outspeeds the entire unboosted metagame and lets it outspeed Shell Smash Tirtouga as well. 196 Attack EVs will let it hit 17 attack to maximize its damage output. Finally, it is able to utilize the leftover EVs for a little extra bulk by putting 36 in HP and 76 in defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by pika250 View Post
    Other than this, there's no reason to use the pig monkey Pokémon outside the tier it's in.
    It's still not viable in Ubers, so there's no reason to use it there either. It's dead weight on a team and if they don't use Darkrai (who's not exactly on every team), then you might as well be playing 5v6.
    Last edited by KillerDraco; 9th October 2016 at 4:15 PM.
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    Going Ape!
    Primeape @ Life Orb
    Ability: Defiant
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Close Combat
    - Rock Slide
    - Protect
    - Earthquake


    Its also worth noting that in lower tier singles Primeape is great for dealing with lead smeargles and other spore users because it gets taunt and vital spirit, this means it can switch into spores and put offensive pressure on your opponent. However Primeape cannot OHKO a smeargle with Dual Chop, so there's no way for it to break the sash and OHKO. Also, be careful with defiant boosts from Tauros, unless you're scarfed and the tauros isn't, you're getting OHKO'd by rock climb or return, even if the tauros is adamant its faster than Jolly Primeape.

    Anti-Lead Ape
    Primeape @ Life Orb
    Ability: Vital Spirit
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Taunt
    - Close Combat
    - Earthquake/Stone Edge
    - U-Turn

    Taunt is for shutting down Smeargles, trevenants, rotoms etc. Close combat is standard STAB for 2HKOing Steelix, Rhydon and even OHKOing Ferroseed, Stone Edge hits Scythers and flying types and can even OHKO Xatu's after stealth rock damage. U-Turn is to keep momentum on your side after trying to force a switch or ruining something that relies on status moves with taunt. It could also carry earthquake, but in NU there's not that much that is weak to ground that the ape can't punch through with close-combat, since close combat can OHKO an offensive electivire or magmortar.


    Because of its frailty, primape is generally a singles mon, but there's a significant exception. One thing I really have fun with using Primeape in doubles is very difficult to set up and it works better with tauros, but fantastic when it works. You set up tailwind and, then have a jolly lapras with a choice scarf an no special attack investment or IVs hit a primeape with anger point. That boosts a jolly primeape's attack up to over 1200. That's enough to OHKO a primal groudon with close combat even if it has defence investments,or with a life orb it will probably wreck both things your opponent has with earthquake.

    +6 252 Atk Life Orb Primeape Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 160+ Def Primal Groudon: 208-247 (100.4 - 119.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    It can also outspeed and OHKO a max speed modest LAndorus-I with rock slide in doubles
    +6 252 Atk Life Orb Primeape Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Landorus: 156-185 (95.1 - 112.8%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

    As I said its very difficult to pull off, as Primeape isn't that fast and is quite frail so its better for doubles rather than VGC, but when it works, anger point primeape is devastating.
    Last edited by Aduro; 9th October 2016 at 11:06 PM.

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    Ooooookay, VGC time. Believe it or not, Primeape is actually *slightly* viable as a very niche Smeargle counter, having a higher base speed stat to shut it down with Taunt, Vital Spirit to block Dark Void, Punishment if you're really ticked off with Moody boosts, and Close Combat for STAB super effective damage. Also, it has a higher base speed than the Primals and Dialga, so Close Combat can do real work to non-Scarf Dialga, and it can pair fairly well with Groudon by being able to use Leer to lower both opponents' defense before Groudon attacks with spread Precipice Blades damage, thus making up for the spread damage dealing 25% less than single-target. Speaking of Groudon being a good partner, Primeape can also use Smack Down to knock flying types out of the air granted said flying types don't outspeed and kill Primeape first (you may wanna look into a Focus Sash if you wanna use this…). It even gets Role Play and Endeavor (which we saw on Glick's Raichu at Worlds this year). If you're more worried about Flying types, though, it does get Ice Punch and Rock Slide which can work with Tailwind up. It also has Low Kick if you're into that move. And it gets Helping Hand. It also gets a very very very good move pool with the elemental punches, Gunk Shot (good against Xerneas), Rock coverage moves, Seed Bomb and some other decent attacks which would work much better with more base attack… that's really about it. I can say quite a few negative things about it, such as not getting Wide Guard, Intimidate, and Fake Out like Hitmontop. Though it has undeniable anger packed inside of it, it doesn't have much of an offensive presence, and its just passable attack stat to handle some non-restricted mons immediately diminishes with a single opposing Intimidate. Its Ice Punch and Rock Slide (or even Stone Edge) have less effect with Rayquaza's Delta Stream active, and loses any way to counter it besides Dual Chop (don't use that). It's not really bulky either, so since its offenses have rather niche uses, it has to use status moves while holding a sash. And wouldn't you rather use it for something with a little more bulk, speed, attack power, or better status movepool, like Cresselia, Liepard (Prankster), Thundurus, or Smeargle (respectively)? I mean I can see why it could be used but it needs a rather specialized team to take advantage of it. It's a unique choice and useful in its own right, don't get me wrong, but sooner or later, this pig monkey pokémon will face some issues it can't battle back with anger.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ampfire101 View Post
    Ooooookay, VGC time. Believe it or not, Primeape is actually *slightly* viable as a very niche Smeargle counter, having a higher base speed stat to shut it down with Taunt, Vital Spirit to block Dark Void, Punishment if you're really ticked off with Moody boosts, and Close Combat for STAB super effective damage. Also, it has a higher base speed than the Primals and Dialga, so Close Combat can do real work to non-Scarf Dialga, and it can pair fairly well with Groudon by being able to use Leer to lower both opponents' defense before Groudon attacks with spread Precipice Blades damage, thus making up for the spread damage dealing 25% less than single-target. Speaking of Groudon being a good partner, Primeape can also use Smack Down to knock flying types out of the air granted said flying types don't outspeed and kill Primeape first (you may wanna look into a Focus Sash if you wanna use this…). It even gets Role Play and Endeavor (which we saw on Glick's Raichu at Worlds this year). If you're more worried about Flying types, though, it does get Ice Punch and Rock Slide which can work with Tailwind up. It also has Low Kick if you're into that move. And it gets Helping Hand. It also gets a very very very good move pool with the elemental punches, Gunk Shot (good against Xerneas), Rock coverage moves, Seed Bomb and some other decent attacks which would work much better with more base attack… that's really about it. I can say quite a few negative things about it, such as not getting Wide Guard, Intimidate, and Fake Out like Hitmontop. Though it has undeniable anger packed inside of it, it doesn't have much of an offensive presence, and its just passable attack stat to handle some non-restricted mons immediately diminishes with a single opposing Intimidate. Its Ice Punch and Rock Slide (or even Stone Edge) have less effect with Rayquaza's Delta Stream active, and loses any way to counter it besides Dual Chop (don't use that). It's not really bulky either, so since its offenses have rather niche uses, it has to use status moves while holding a sash. And wouldn't you rather use it for something with a little more bulk, speed, attack power, or better status movepool, like Cresselia, Liepard (Prankster), Thundurus, or Smeargle (respectively)? I mean I can see why it could be used but it needs a rather specialized team to take advantage of it. It's a unique choice and useful in its own right, don't get me wrong, but sooner or later, this pig monkey pokémon will face some issues it can't battle back with anger.
    This might be the king of all nitpicks but Punishment doesn't help you with Moody much if at all as it doesn't ignore evasiveness modifiers and Smeargle is already OHKO'd by a Life Orb Close Combat even at +4.

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    No one's talked about Encore yet? It's a bit of a niche option, especially since you'll have to use a Life Orb or Fist Plate now, but it is surprisingly annoying. As an example, it gives Primeape the means to deal with Calm Mind Musharna, which by virtue of its low speed is easily locked into an Encore'd move. I'd argue this at least warrants an OO.

    Also:
    Quote Originally Posted by Aduro View Post
    Going Ape!
    Primeape @ Life Orb
    Ability: Anger Point
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Close Combat
    - Rock Slide
    - Protect
    - Earthquake
    Did you want Defiant on that set? I don't recommend Anger Point on singles Primeape, it's too frail to survive crits. Actually, I don't think anything that gets Anger Point is good at taking crits...
    Last edited by generic villager #5; 10th October 2016 at 8:29 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by generic villager #5 View Post
    Did you want Defiant on that set? I don't recommend Anger Point on Primeape, it's too frail to survive crits. Actually, I don't think anything that gets Anger Point is good at taking crits...
    My bad, I meant anger point for the gimmicky doubles set with a frost breath user to max its attack. Generally you will want defiant unless you want something do deal with smeargle or a spore user.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Divine Retribution View Post
    This might be the king of all nitpicks but Punishment doesn't help you with Moody much if at all as it doesn't ignore evasiveness modifiers and Smeargle is already OHKO'd by a Life Orb Close Combat even at +4.
    Yeah dude I know, just felt like throwing that out there. Don't use Punishment lol. Idk if LO is the best item to use on Primeape, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ampfire101 View Post
    Yeah dude I know, just felt like throwing that out there. Don't use Punishment lol. Idk if LO is the best item to use on Primeape, though.
    On non-Choice sets I would say it is, at least in Singles. Maybe an Expert Belt or Fist Plate to bluff a Scarf set, but Life Orb gives you the most mileage. I don't think Doubles would be all that different.

    Of course playing Battle Spot or other tiers where Item Clause is in play is a different story, because frankly you don't want to waste your only Life Orb on something as underwhelming as Primeape in any format.

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    I simply feel like since Primeape does good enough damage with its fighting STAB to the things its supposed to maim in VGC (or WCS since we gotta call it that soon) and it could use the extra bulk with a sash since its bulk isn't great. Things that can outspeed like most WCS flying types of the metagame like Mega Mence and Ray and Talonflame can take it out without much effort, Intimidate won't even stop them, and since its speed is rather middling as well, I feel like the Sash is the best option (unless you want to use Primeape in Trick Room in which case it would under speed Mega Salamence and Rayquaza but not Talonflame's Gale Wings Brave Bird and also won't under speed the Primals and Dialga like Hitmontop can). I would at least use a Sash along with Primal Groudon to fire off a Leer to make Precipice Blades hit harder or Smack Down to hurt Talonflame and get Groudon's Ground STAB attacks to hit. Or stuff like that. I cannot say the same for NU since I do not really do a ton of singles competitively, but I could see how, with its great speed for the their and nice attack stat, it could do really well with Life Orb but I truly do not recommend it for WCS since the total attack stat with Primeape plus LO is still not close to cutting it with the popular restricted mons.
    Last edited by ampfire101; 11th October 2016 at 1:41 AM.

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    First time i post in this kind of thread, so if i write something wrong please let me know to help me to improve my post for the next time.

    Actually, Primeape is a pretty underrated mon in NU, especially because we have a good amount of fighting type already, while Hariyama is an amazing special tank with the assault vest and the addition of Thick Fat which allow him to be one of the best ice/fire check in the tiers, and with Gurdurr which is a blanket check for many physical threats such as Tauros, Shiftry, Hariyama, Kangaskhan & cie, while those two have access to decent priority in Fake Out/Bullet Punch, or Mach Punch for the latter. The most used fighting type is Hitmonchan due to how threatening it can be with his pretty decent bulk with Assault Vest or his pretty good sheer power with Life Orb, Hitmonchan is probably the best spinner in the tiers actually.

    But that doesn't mean Primeape is bad, more likely overshadowed from these three, Primeape still have some good point:

    -Decent speed tier
    -Good offensive movepool: Close Combat/U-Turn/Stone Edge/Earthquake/Gunk Shot/Elemental punches that allows you to adapt your set regarding to what your team needs.
    -Plenty of usable items to lure the opponent: Black Belt/Expert Belt/Choice Scarf/Choice Band.
    -Pretty good attack stats
    -Two amazing abilities in Vital Spirit and Defiant

    Primeape only run one set, but with a lot of options:

    Primeape - Choice Band / Choice Scarf / Black Belt / Expert Belt
    Ability: Defiant / Vital Spirit
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Close Combat
    - U-turn
    - Stone Edge / Gunk Shot / Thunder Punch / Punishement
    - Earthquake / Gunk Shot / Thunder Punch / Punishement / Encore

    Well i guess it's pretty obvious here:

    Close Combat as a pretty strong STAB which hit a lot of things in the tiers, U-Turn to grab the momentum and deal some chip damages, Stone Edge allows you to hit both Flying and Bug type super effectively, the mains target from this move are Scyther, Vivillon, Charizard and Xatu. With the rise of popularity for Clefairy, Gunk Shot become a pretty decent option as it allows you to do some pretty nice damages and force him to switch out instead of completely getting walled. Thunder Punch allows you to hit super effectively Flying type again, but mostly Pelipper and Mantine this time who aren't OHKO'd by Stone Edge. Punishement is pretty situationnal but it allows you to deal with set up Psychic such as Calm Mind Mesprit, Musharna, and Xatu more easily as the power increase for each boost they get, so it's a pretty good option if your team have some troubles to deal with them. Encore is pretty cool if you have a set up sweeper in your team because it allows you to force your oppenent to use the same move during several turns or just forces him to switch out, that can allows you to set up a sweeper a lot more easily, but with Encore, you need to use Expert / Black Belt because being locked on a passive move is pretty bad.

    In NU the main answer to Primeape are:

    Poison type are amazing as a fighting check in general, mostly because most of them are physically defensive: Weezing, Garbodor and Vileplume. But also because most of them can take advantage of a fighting type by setting up Spikes or Toxic Spikes: Weezing, Garbodor and Roselia. While some of them can even punish him if it click on U-turn: Effect Spore Vileplume and Rocky Helmet Garbodor, altought the later need to be careful because Earthquake do massive damages.

    Ghost type are also obviously pretty good as a fighting immunity, especially against Primeape which lack of Knock Off, Mismagius and Rotom can easily come in and just click Will-o-Wisp to deal with Primeape, while Golurk and Gourgeist-XL just wall it even if it is not burned because Primeape generally doesn't run Ice Punch.

    Psychic type are less good as checking primeape as most of them doesn't like taking a banded u-turn, or are weak to a coverage move the best psychic type to check Primeape is Musharna as it have the opportunity to heal up these U-Turn damages with Moonlight and/or Leftovers. While Xatu can check non-Stone Edge Primeape, you have to be careful with it. Mesprit is also a decent check, but without any recovery bar Leftovers which is not common, it can be worn down by U-Turn.

    Flying Type are obviously decent answer to Primeape, but this time it's more like offensive answer, as most of these bulky birds are pretty slow and can loose to Stone Edge / Thunder Punch: Xatu/Pelipper/Mantine. Scyther is pretty good as checking Primeape because if it is choice locked into something that's not Stone Edge, Scyther can come pretty easily due to his cool bulk and ability to use Roost while also outspeeding every not scarfed Primeape.

    I'm not talking about wifi or whatever because i only play on simulator, so all i've said in this post is NU related.

    Excuse me for my bad grammar/general english, it's not my first language, hope i haven't wrote many wrong things.

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    When you have that many slashes you don't have one set, you have like 2 or 3 smushed together with the inclusion of random things that are probably better off listed as OOs.

    Band and Scarf play differently (probably, I've never touched NU but it stands to reason they do) and deserve their own sets.
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    Punishment is just bad in general, its effectively just base 60 power unless Primeape is up against something with defensive boosts so it usually won't do much more than earthquake or stone edge even if its on a psychic type. And if Primeape does have to deal with a setup tank, and its not going to do much to a barrier Musharna with punishment. Not to mention most setup sweepers in NU seem to be bug or fighting types that can set up bulk up or quiver dance, the kinds of mons that die to close combat or stone edge.

    252 Atk Life Orb Primeape Punishment (100 BP) vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Beheeyem: 309-367 (89.8 - 106.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
    252 Atk Life Orb Primeape Punishment (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Lilligant: 185-218 (65.8 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Life orb Primeape won't even guarantee an OHKO on a +2 Special attack Beheeyem with no physical defence investment, or a completely offensive lilligant that's already set up a quiver dance. You're better off with a stronger coverage move. And that's with a life orb, so it would severely outdamage a primeape with expert belt or fist plate.

    Unless you're up against Mantine or another 4X weak pokemon, Thunder Punch will also be considerably outdamaged by either stone edge or close combat depending on what you're hitting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aduro View Post
    Punishment is just bad in general, its effectively just base 60 power unless Primeape is up against something with defensive boosts so it usually won't do much more than earthquake or stone edge even if its on a psychic type. And if Primeape does have to deal with a setup tank, and its not going to do much to a barrier Musharna with punishment. Not to mention most setup sweepers in NU seem to be bug or fighting types that can set up bulk up or quiver dance, the kinds of mons that die to close combat or stone edge.

    252 Atk Life Orb Primeape Punishment (100 BP) vs. 212 HP / 0 Def Beheeyem: 309-367 (89.8 - 106.6%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO
    252 Atk Life Orb Primeape Punishment (120 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Lilligant: 185-218 (65.8 - 77.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Life orb Primeape won't even guarantee an OHKO on a +2 Special attack Beheeyem with no physical defence investment, or a completely offensive lilligant that's already set up a quiver dance. You're better off with a stronger coverage move. And that's with a life orb, so it would severely outdamage a primeape with expert belt or fist plate.
    It can punish (ha ha ha sue me) Calm Mind Musharna but it requires it to have already set up like 3 Calm Minds and it still loses to Stored Power sets like you mentioned. Punishment is a nifty move but sadly Primeape just isn't strong enough to make any use of it, especially in NU.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Divine Retribution View Post
    It can punish (ha ha ha sue me) Calm Mind Musharna but it requires it to have already set up like 3 Calm Minds and it still loses to Stored Power sets like you mentioned. Punishment is a nifty move but sadly Primeape just isn't strong enough to make any use of it, especially in NU.
    I think it's worth mentioning that while Primeape doesn't get Knock Off, it does get a few rather underwhelming Dark-type moves such as Punishment, Payback, Night Slash, Thief, Assurance, and Beat Up. They all have their ways of serving their uses, but generally aren't to bother with as U-Turn is much more popular to hit Psychic types. Punishment does more damage to opponents that like setting up, but doesn't phase Choiced or defensive Pokémon. Night Slash is the most powerful, with a nice chance to crit. Payback does more damage to faster opponents, but not much will outspeed a Scarfed Primeape. Thief is somewhat like Knock Off, in that your opponent loses their item but without extra power. Assurance somewhat works but relies on the opponent to move faster AND use a recoil-inducing move or Life Orb and priority. And Beat Up sucks unless you haven't lost a single teammate.

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    It's funny to note that Primeape has some weird special moves in Overheat and T-Bolt. Of course, he also has a good enough physical coverage so you don't really have to delve into it and plus there's the fact that his SpA is, yknow, terrible...

    Uhmm not much to say about Primeape....a good name for one is Furious George!



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    Quote Originally Posted by MetalSonic View Post
    It's funny to note that Primeape has some weird special moves in Overheat and T-Bolt. Of course, he also has a good enough physical coverage so you don't really have to delve into it and plus there's the fact that his SpA is, yknow, terrible...

    Uhmm not much to say about Primeape....a good name for one is Furious George!
    Just about died laughing at that nickname XD in the anime, Ninjask is able to severely hurt Infernape with Giga Drain despite it being resisted, no STAB, and Ninjask's low base SpA, Sceptile can keep using Leaf Storm without lowering its SpA it seems, and Greninja can eat two Leaf Storms from said Sceptile and still be ready to fight and beat Sceptile with Water Shuriken. Hopefully we can play Pokémon similarly in a virtual reality game mode and perhaps those moves will make more sense in that mode but until then, don't use any Special attacking moves. It gets a very wide physical move pool anyway, and unless you need to kill Ferroseed in one hit, it's not practical to use Overheat and Mantine will take much more damage from Thunderpunch than Thunderbolt

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