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Thread: Community POTW #157

  1. #1
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    Default Community POTW #157

    Time for next week, and as it's Halloween, we're going spooky!



    This week we've got the Ghost/Grass-type Pokémon, Trevenant

    http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-xy/709.shtml

    Go nuts

  2. #2
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    Another Pokemon that I just lack experience with...

    I've never used Trevenant outside of RandBats (and even there I can't think of any time where he particularly stood out to me), and looking at his stats I can see why he's not a very relevant Pokemon in the higher tiers. One of the very first Pokemon I used competitively in Gen 6 was Gourgeist, and I was very impressed by its high Defence and great typing. Trevenant shares that typing, but lacks Gourgeist's great physical bulk. It does have a slightly higher Attack stat, but being both slow as hell and not particularly bulky, it really struggles to do anything with it. It can pull off some SubSeed shenanigans, but Pokemon that are either faster or bulkier (or both in many cases) do that better. Its Choice Band sets are decent, but other Choice Band users that are either stronger, faster, or can actually take a hit will often serve you better. Harvest sets might seem like fun at first but they're not at all reliable, and Trevenant simply lacks the bulk to pull them off effectively. Its final niche is that it can make for a solid attacker on low-tier Trick Room teams, but even then there's other Pokemon who can perform those roles even better.

    All in all I just don't see any use for this thing. I get he has decent coverage and respectable power for NU, but there's just so many other options you could put in that teamslot that would give you more overall mileage. As for the higher tiers, I wouldn't even consider him. Sorry for the useless post, but meh, sometimes you just have to accept that a Pokemon isn't competitively viable. As I said I've never really used him so maybe I'm completely wrong, but I'm struggling to find any redeeming qualities in this guy.
    Last edited by Divine Retribution; 23rd October 2016 at 2:54 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Divine Retribution View Post
    Sorry for the useless post, but meh, sometimes you just have to accept that a Pokemon isn't competitively viable. As I said I've never really used him so maybe I'm completely wrong, but I'm struggling to find any redeeming qualities in this guy.
    It's not that Trevenant has zero redeeming qualities... although it's pretty close. Trevenant has what you might call an extremely bungled, overly specific niche. It's mainly used as an offensive grass type who can spinblock and absorb status. It's outclassed at all three of those roles individually, but it's kind of the only one who can do all three in one set. It doesn't necessarily do it super well, but a niche is a niche, and it's enough to at least give it C+ viability in NU. As you already mentioned, Gourgeist-XL does give it competition in a defensive role, especially since not only does it have better physical bulk, but also Synthesis as well, and that reliable recovery is much more valuable than Harvest, which is kinda gimmicky and screwed over by Knock Off (which incidentally, Trevenant is weak to).

    Forget about using it in the upper tiers. It's just not gonna work.

    And sadly, poor Phantump isn't viable in the Little Cup, either. It can run a Harvest set there, but then it can't carry Eviolite, so it's pretty frail, in addition to the obvious susceptibility to Knock Off which is pretty much omnipresent in the Little Cup.
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    Trevenant is not what people would call spectacular, especially in WCS 2016, but this elder tree (whose shiny I think is really cool-looking) *can sorta* be okay on a Double Primal Trick Room team. It gets some nifty options like Worry Seed to stop opponents' weather, Skill Swap to reset your own, Imprison to stop opponents from resetting weather, Will-O-Wisp to burn Mega Kang (which can't really touch it without Ice Punch or Sucker Punch), and Horn Leech (or Wood Hammer) with a base 110 Attack stat from a Poké that will move before Primal Kyogre in TR. Also, it gets Destiny Bond which is a last ditch resort to take out something dire and works very well in Trick Room where Trevenant is blazingly fast, and Forest's Curse if you want your partner Groudon to kill something with Fire Punch. STAB Ghost attacks will OHKO Mega Gengar too. Its abilities are decent, with Frisk to figure out opposing Smeargles' items, Natural Cure to heal off burns, and Harvest paired with Sitrus Berry to help against your opponents' non Megas and restricted mons. There's not much else going for it, however. Rayquaza outright kills it (though it can't use Extremespeed on it to finish off a weakened Trevenant), Xerneas at +2 is devastating, Yveltal can really pummel with Sucker Punch, Groudon gets Fire-STAB, even Kyogre gets Ice Beam to take it out, as if that were all. Trevenant is completely hindered by Taunt, and can't take Will-O-Wisp well either. Mega Gengar, while susceptible in TR, can really kill with Shadow Ball outside of it, and Mega Salamence can KO with Flying-STAB. Plus, a lot of the moves I listed for Trevenant are rather gimmicky picks, scraped from the bottom of the barrel. Get something like Cresselia or Bronzong, who can actually use TR themselves, and are also able to use Skill Swap (Bronzong can even learn Imprison) and have better bulk. Or get something with Prankster, because they can use priority status moves inside and outside of TR, while able to hold themselves with better damage like Thunderbolt (even a solid HP Water) from Thundurus and Foul Play from Liepard. Plus this thing is rather dead weight if your opponent doesn't carry Mega Mence, Kang, Ray, or Primal Kyogre (but since most people carry at least one of those four it has some niche use) or if you're not going to be able to use TR before Trevenant comes out.

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    Weeeelll...I'm no expert of using Trevenant, despite my love for unorthodox strategies because frankly, Trevenant has almost nothing to make it stand out. Everything it does can be considered niche. But since I feel like the POTW discussion will need at least one actual set, obvious or no, here's one blatantly (and lovingly) ripped off from Smogon:

    Trevenant @ Choice Band
    Natural Cure
    252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe, Adamant or Jolly
    - Wood Hammer
    - Shadow Claw
    - Earthquake
    - Horn Leech / Rock Slide

    This set is a weird mix of roles, but situationally it might be nice to have around. First of all, the nature: choose it based on the moves. I recommend Adamant with Horn Leech and Jolly with Rock Slide; being slow is slightly less of an issue with a healing move, but you'll want the coverage with Jolly. Next, the item: Choice Band is best, and that's about it. Harvest might work on a sun team, but even then there's a lot of holes in it (see: Knock Off). Natural Cure is Trevenant's best ability most of the time, so when you switch out because of Choice-locking you'll ditch status. The moves, then, are pretty basic for a Choice set: the best coverage and strongest moves available. Wood Hammer hits quite hard off of Trevenant's Attack with a Choice Band, as does Shadow Claw (having less power but no recoil and better neutral coverage). Earthquake hits Poison- and Steel-types that shrug off Trevenant's STABs. The last slot is up to you: Adamant nature means decent healing off of Horn Leech and a reduced need for coverage, but Jolly makes better use of Rock Slide's excellent coverage with Earthquake. Flinching probably still won't happen though. Threats this set checks? Not too many; Gastrodon, some Musharna, the rarely seen Wartortle, and a handful of others. Checks to this set? Weezing, Skuntank, Scyther, Archeops, Pyroar, Haunter, the list goes on. Trevenant isn't PU; it has a solid defensive typing, a decent STAB combo with access to good coverage moves, a nice 110 base Attack, and it handles status rather nicely, but it is often outclassed. In an environment full of min-maxing, Trevenant performs several tasks well but none perfectly, and it shows.
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    Are Natural Cure and the ability to Spinblock really enough to set it apart from Torterra, who sports much better bulk, only one less point in Attack, and even the same Speed tier (but with Rock Polish to patch it up if it wishes)? Torterra even has a solid secondary STAB in Earthquake, which I would argue is generally better than Shadow Claw in NU (although doing some damage to Haunter as well as unboosted Musharna and Duosion is nice). Hell, Torterra could even run a Choice Band set consisting of Wood Hammer, Earthquake, Stone Edge, and whatever filler move you'd like (Crunch, Stealth Rock, Iron Head, Seed Bomb) and almost completely eclipse Trevenant in an offensive role.

    So is it really just Natural Cure and a secondary Ghost typing that are enough to set Trevenant apart, or is there something else I'm missing here?

  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Divine Retribution View Post
    So is it really just Natural Cure and a secondary Ghost typing that are enough to set Trevenant apart, or is there something else I'm missing here?
    Pretty much. KillerDraco said it best, it's a weird niche of multiple roles mashed together, none of which it excels at. Although I'm not certain it still has C+ ranking in NU; I could be wrong about that.
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    No one seems to know the terror this thing can cause. I used one on my monograss team, it has ONLY lost to talonflame.

    Trevenant@Lum Berry
    EV's: max hp and sp def
    ability harvest

    rest
    will-o-wisp
    shadowclaw
    leech seed

    With this moveset, it almost never goes down. It has physical moves weakened thanks to will-o-wisp, and the lum berry and rest wrecks havok on almost everything. status absorber and staller...

    Yes, this pokemon has weaknesses, but if you can predict accordingly, you'll do fine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by deoxysdude94 View Post
    No one seems to know the terror this thing can cause. I used one on my monograss team, it has ONLY lost to talonflame.

    Trevenant@Lum Berry
    EV's: max hp and sp def
    ability harvest

    rest
    will-o-wisp
    shadowclaw
    leech seed

    With this moveset, it almost never goes down. It has physical moves weakened thanks to will-o-wisp, and the lum berry and rest wrecks havok on almost everything. status absorber and staller...

    Yes, this pokemon has weaknesses, but if you can predict accordingly, you'll do fine.
    Can't tell if serious.

    This Pokemon doesn't just have weaknesses, it has crippling weaknesses. Namely it's slow, frail, and gimmicky. Show me a few replays of it putting in work in any format with Talonflame in it on the higher ladder (1800+) and we'll talk, but until then, this thing is bottom-of-the-barrel NU for a reason. 9 times out of 10 you're going to find yourself outsped and OHKO'd thanks to Trevenant's low Speed and lack of bulk. Harvest is infamous as being a gimmick that simply doesn't work in practice, as the RNG-based 50% chance of failing to find a berry means that you've got a 50% chance of getting screwed over each time you rely on it, and if it gets hit by Knock Off, you're finished.

    Not to mention, even in NU, Gourgeist pulls off the SubSeed set much better thanks to a much higher Defence and access to Synthesis. Not that I'd recommend SubSeed in general, being completely ****ed over if your opponent carries a Grass-type or anything with Substitute or Taunt isn't ideal. It works to an extent on Pokemon like Serperior who have offensive presence outside of SubSeed, but it's simply a gimmick on Pokemon who lack that offensive pressure.

    There's simply no reason to use Trevenant in the higher tiers when there's so many things that will give you a much, much better payoff. Even in NU I'd argue you should never use it unless you're looking for that overly specific niche that Draco mentioned.
    Last edited by Divine Retribution; 25th October 2016 at 8:29 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deoxysdude94 View Post
    No one seems to know the terror this thing can cause. I used one on my monograss team, it has ONLY lost to talonflame.

    Trevenant@Lum Berry
    EV's: max hp and sp def
    ability harvest

    rest
    will-o-wisp
    shadowclaw
    leech seed

    With this moveset, it almost never goes down. It has physical moves weakened thanks to will-o-wisp, and the lum berry and rest wrecks havok on almost everything. status absorber and staller...

    Yes, this pokemon has weaknesses, but if you can predict accordingly, you'll do fine.
    Monotype plays different from nu in my experience, as mons that may be seen terrible have a chance at doing something. For example: my most reliable ghost type is mismagius, even with gengar and mega bannete on the team, let alone scyther who shows much more then mega scizor and volcarona. In nu trevenant is no problem to deal with, as it is ohko by most things that are super effective attacks.

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    Grass and Ghost aren't viable types in Monotype anyways ever since the Mega Sableye ban (I don't think Grass was ever a viable type, really, as it autoloses to at least two of the four big Monotype titans), so I'm not really sure why we'd even bother having that discussion.
    Last edited by Divine Retribution; 26th October 2016 at 3:52 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Divine Retribution View Post
    Grass and Ghost aren't viable types in Monotype anyways ever since the Mega Sableye ban (I don't think Grass was ever a viable type, really, as it autoloses to at least two of the four big Monotype titans), so I'm not really sure why we'd even bother having that discussion.
    True, grass is never a problem. Ghost has at least two immunities, and most have three with levitate. They're not the best, but don't do that bad either. Mega sableye would really help, as no usefull ghost gets defig or rapid spin.

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    I suspect in the remake of Diamond/Pearl speculation, Trevenant and Gourgeist - 1 will get an evolution and 1 a mega-evolution.

    Just like Banette and Dusclops - 1 got an evolution, and 1 got a mega evolution.

    If Trevenant gets an evolution, I'd use it in a heartbeat. My only regret is that it's Ghost/Grass instead of Grass/Ghost.

    If Trevenant gets an evolution with a stat increase of 10/10/10/10/10/10, it'll be another 534 like Charizard. Definitely usable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Incineroar View Post
    I suspect in the remake of Diamond/Pearl speculation, Trevenant and Gourgeist - 1 will get an evolution and 1 a mega-evolution.

    Just like Banette and Dusclops - 1 got an evolution, and 1 got a mega evolution.

    If Trevenant gets an evolution, I'd use it in a heartbeat. My only regret is that it's Ghost/Grass instead of Grass/Ghost.

    If Trevenant gets an evolution with a stat increase of 10/10/10/10/10/10, it'll be another 534 like Charizard. Definitely usable.
    This isn't really relevant to competitive Pokemon, though, which is what the POTWs are for.

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    The sad thing is, when XY first came out, Trevenant was apparently seized on as a potential OU entrant, a far better utilizer of Harvest than Tropius ever could be. Of course, it helped that Knock Off wasn't nearly as prolific at the time. Although...I think I remember someone mentioning that Trevenant was already having some problems before it got blindsided by Knock Off proliferation. Not that I can remember what they were, and it was in chat, so I don't think there are records of it. But the point is, at least at first, the Harvest/Horn Leech combination was seen as giving it excellent staying power despite its low speed. And to think I was pleasantly surprised, given I was worried about its hefty five weaknesses...I rather liked the sense its level-up movelist gave of both strength (Horn Leech, Shadow Claw) and cunning (Will-o-Wisp, Confuse Ray, Leech Seed, Venom Drench if you want to extend into breeding moves).

    (And yes, I know you can't have all six of those at once.)

    Here's hoping Decidueye does better in the Grass/Ghost department.
    Last edited by Skyknight; 27th October 2016 at 11:42 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skyknight View Post
    Here's hoping Decidueye does better in the Grass/Ghost department.
    I hope so as well. Grass-Ghost types so far seem rather slow, but at least Gourgeist-XL has viability in OU. Trevenant does not, and unfortunately, it is very gimmicky with the whole Harvest and Horn Leech thing going on (speaking of horns and Grass types I really like Tapu Bulu for whatever reason but I digress).
    Last edited by KillerDraco; 28th October 2016 at 12:56 AM. Reason: Removed Datamine Spoilers

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    Here's an old RU set:

    HP 182 Atk 252 Spd 76
    Adamant
    Choice Band
    Natural Cure

    Wood Hammer
    Earthquake
    Horn Leech
    Shadow Claw

    There is no point running a Jolly nature as most things will still outspeed you. Adamant maximises power with Choice Band. Also, the slower speed means you can use Horn Leech to attack last and recover health.

    Alternatively you could use Rest over Horn Leech to switch out and lose the Sleep status but this can give you opponent a free turn if predicted.
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