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Thread: The Pokemon Anime Versus Thread

  1. #3351
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    Quote Originally Posted by Genaller View Post
    Olympia hands down! If we take them as they were in their respective battles against Ash, Olympia was far more experienced not to mention Tate&Liza just started properly using combinations whereas Olympia’s Pokémon were a well oiled machine. Sure it could be argued that Pikachu and (Guts) Swellow were overall “stronger” than Frogadier and Talonflame; however, it should also be noted that the Ash facing a Olympia was considerably more skilled than the Ash facing Tate&Liza.
    Wouldn't say he was "considerably more skilled" lol. Not that I disagree with the possibility of Olympia winning, but how are the Mewostics going to get past the Light Screen? They don't have any physical moves IIRC. It took Thunder Armor aka Super Guts from Swellow to break through that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Navin View Post
    Wouldn't say he was "considerably more skilled" lol. Not that I disagree with the possibility of Olympia winning, but how are the Mewostics going to get past the Light Screen? They don't have any physical moves IIRC. It took Thunder Armor aka Super Guts from Swellow to break through that.
    Reflect and Light Screen are OP in the anime, though there were cases where they acted like in the games.
    What do we want? Sinnoh remakes.
    When do we want them? Soon.

  3. #3353
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    Quote Originally Posted by Navin View Post
    Wouldn't say he was "considerably more skilled" lol. Not that I disagree with the possibility of Olympia winning, but how are the Mewostics going to get past the Light Screen? They don't have any physical moves IIRC. It took Thunder Armor aka Super Guts from Swellow to break through that.
    We both agree that DP Ash had the greatest net gain in skill and as far as I’m concerned XY Ash is a tad better than even that overall (I even wrote a post about how Ash’s best XY performance is actually a bit superior to his best DP performance; if you want to debate me on it then Quote Post 3196), so “considerably” seems to be a fairly apt word here (that comparison didn’t even take into consideration XY Ash’s in general superior move chaining and reaction time). Not denying that AG Ash was a good trainer in his own right. Helping Hand boosted attacks theoretically should neutralize Light Screen and from there it’s just a matter of which Pokémon have better team work (and Olympia’s seem to have the definitive edge there). Also for the record Tate&Liza got outright wreckt (and not just beaten) by TA Swellow indicating that significantly less is needed to just secure a win.
    Last edited by Genaller; Yesterday at 12:24 AM.
    Peakachu Progression: Surge2 (Kanto) -> Drake (OI) -> Clair2 (Johto) -> Tyson (Hoenn) -> Brandon3 (BF) -> Tobias (Sinnoh) -> Alain3 (Kalos)

    OS -> AG -> DP -> XY encompasses the character and skill progression of the true Ash!

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  4. #3354
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    Quote Originally Posted by Genaller View Post
    so “considerably” seems to be a fairly apt word here. Not denying that AG Ash was a good trainer in his own right.
    Certainly agree XY is better, though I feel "considerably" is too strong of a word. Don't feel like debating this tbh (just don't have the time nor the desire lol).

    Helping Hand boosted attacks theoretically should neutralize Light Screen and from there it’s just a matter of which Pokémon have better team work (and Olympia’s seem to have the definitive edge there).
    Eh, you really think H.H. has the power to break through? Thunder Armor definitely packed superior punch than a H.H.-boosted attack.

    Well, Olympia is better than either of Tate/Liza, but it is still 2 minds vs 1; could neutralize the experience factor (T&L are talented). T&L also have ranged attacks to counter the ranged moves of the Meowstics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Navin View Post
    Certainly agree XY is better, though I feel "considerably" is too strong of a word. Don't feel like debating this tbh (just don't have thetime nor the desire lol).
    Well considering that the net difference between DP and XY Ash should be marginal either way, the same word should apply with respect to the degree of difference between them and AG Ash in other words would “considerably” be too strong a word if it were comparing AG and DP Ash instead? This would be a different story if we were talking about say BF Ash specifically.



    Eh, you really think H.H. has the power to break through? Thunder Armor definitely packed superior punch than a H.H.-boosted attack.

    Well, Olympia is better than either of Tate/Liza, but it is still 2 minds vs 1; could neutralize the experience factor (T&L are talented). T&L also have ranged attacks to counter the ranged moves of the Meowstics.
    Ah never mind helping hand would still only result in .75 damage (assuming LS would result in .5 damage), though Olympia’s M-Meowstic also has LS, so Olympa’s side still have the net advantage here. Also The point was that Tate&Liza just started working effectively together (when Ash first met them they had poor teamwork skill), so Olympia’s Pokémon should be the superior team due to having more experience effectively working together. F-Meowstic also has the most dangerous move in the battle in Dark Pulse. Future Sight is one of those moves that could be used to distract the twins (since there mind will be continuously thinking about when the attack will strike rather than focusing completely on the battle) though I can see one of the twins temporarily acting as a human timer while the other temporarily commands both Pokémon in this case. Also if they try coming in close for Tackle they risk a greater possibility of getting T-Waved. Overall Olympia’s side seems to have the edge both in net move effectiveness and teamwork skill.
    Last edited by Genaller; Yesterday at 12:58 AM.
    Peakachu Progression: Surge2 (Kanto) -> Drake (OI) -> Clair2 (Johto) -> Tyson (Hoenn) -> Brandon3 (BF) -> Tobias (Sinnoh) -> Alain3 (Kalos)

    OS -> AG -> DP -> XY encompasses the character and skill progression of the true Ash!

    N - "My ideals will shatter the truth of this world!"

  6. #3356
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    Quote Originally Posted by Genaller View Post
    This would be a different story if we were talking about say BF Ash specifically.
    I'd say AG Ash by the seventh gym was trending up and hitting league/BF form. But fair enough.

    Ah never mind helping hand would still only result in .75 damage (assuming LS would result in .5 damage), though Olympia’s M-Meowstic also has LS, so Olympa’s side still have the net advantage here. Also The point was that Tate&Liza just started working effectively together (when Ash first met them they had poor teamwork skill), so Olympia’s Pokémon should be the superior team due to having more experience effectively working together. F-Meowstic also has the most dangerous move in the battle in Dark Pulse. Future Sight is one of those moves that could be used to distract the twins (since there mind will be continuously thinking about when the attack will strike rather than focusing completely on the battle) though I can see one of the twins temporarily acting as a human timer while the other temporarily commands both Pokémon in this case. Also if they try coming in close for Tackle they risk a greater possibility of getting T-Waved. Overall Olympia’s side seems to have the edge both in net move effectiveness and teamwork skill.
    Future Sight will be neutralized after the first time because either of the twins can account for it; Dark Pulse too can be figured after an initial distraction. Well, even if Solrock/Lunatone don't come close (they just have that option), the Mewostics are only restricted to ranged special moves, which can be neutralized by the ranged attacks of T&L's and by a strong Light Screen (that I still don't see how Olympia's Pokemon are going to break anytime soon). Olympia is a better trainer and her Pokemon have more experience together, but this is just a bad match-up for them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Navin View Post
    Future Sight will be neutralized after the first time because either of the twins can account for it; Dark Pulse too can be figured after an initial distraction. Well, even if Solrock/Lunatone don't come close (they just have that option), the Mewostics are only restricted to ranged special moves, which can be neutralized by the ranged attacks of T&L's and by a strong Light Screen (that I still don't see how Olympia's Pokemon are going to break anytime soon). Olympia is a better trainer and her Pokemon have more experience together, but this is just a bad match-up for them.
    I don’t understand how this is a “bad matchup” for them. Both teams have Light Screen; the only direct physical move Solrock and Lunatone have is Tackle and if they dare come close then they’re very likely getting T-Waved (they might get it even at a range) which would give Olympia a huge advantage for the remainder of the match. Okay so you do admit FS will catch them off guard at least once and sorry but what are they going to do against Helping Hand boosted Dark Pulse which is by far the most effective move in this match (Solarbeam requires charge time and Ice Beam definitely isn’t cancelling out that Attack on its own). Olympia’s Pokémon have both the matchup advantage and better teamwork, and hence have a higher likelihood of winning.
    Peakachu Progression: Surge2 (Kanto) -> Drake (OI) -> Clair2 (Johto) -> Tyson (Hoenn) -> Brandon3 (BF) -> Tobias (Sinnoh) -> Alain3 (Kalos)

    OS -> AG -> DP -> XY encompasses the character and skill progression of the true Ash!

    N - "My ideals will shatter the truth of this world!"

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    With good chances of either poipole or buzzwole being a possible capture of ash should we replace GPICSS with GPICSP/GPICSSB with poipole/buzzwole replacing snorlax, those two are UB's afterall. The difference b/w ash and paul will become even wider if either one of them is captured.
    Favourite Characters- Ash, Serena, Lillie, Dawn, Gladion, Cilan, Brock, Cynthia, Kiawe, Lana, Lance, Alain, Steven Stone

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    Watching pokemon for 17 years, grown up while watching this show. Also liked the different characters form different sagas. I hate genwunners.

  9. #3359
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    Quote Originally Posted by Genaller View Post
    I don’t understand how this is a “bad matchup” for them. Both teams have Light Screen; the only direct physical move Solrock and Lunatone have is Tackle and if they dare come close then they’re very likely getting T-Waved (they might get it even at a range) which would give Olympia a huge advantage for the remainder of the match.
    And Meowstics only have special ranged attacks. Tackle at least gives Lunatone/Solrock the option of coming in close in case the Mewostics get buffeted by a Sandstorm, immobilized by a Psychic, or hit by one of their own reflected attacks.

    Okay so you do admit FS will catch them off guard at least once and sorry but what are they going to do against Helping Hand boosted Dark Pulse which is by far the most effective move in this match (Solarbeam requires charge time and Ice Beam definitely isn’t cancelling out that Attack on its own). Olympia’s Pokémon have both the matchup advantage and better teamwork, and hence have a higher likelihood of winning.
    ....um they'll Light Screen and reflect it back? Lol. It took literal Thunder Armor aka Super Guts from Swellow to break through the Light Screen. A H.H-boosted Dark Pulse is still a pure Special attack that's getting blocked and reflected, and certainly isn't comparable to Thunder Armor. Except...this Solrock can rapidfire Solar Beams.


    Quote Originally Posted by ash&charizardfan View Post
    With good chances of either poipole or buzzwole being a possible capture of ash should we replace GPICSS with GPICSP/GPICSSB with poipole/buzzwole replacing snorlax, those two are UB's afterall. The difference b/w ash and paul will become even wider if either one of them is captured.
    I'd wait until they join and stay.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Navin View Post
    And Meowstics only have special ranged attacks. Tackle at least gives Lunatone/Solrock the option of coming in close in case the Mewostics get buffeted by a Sandstorm, immobilized by a Psychic, or hit by one of their own reflected attacks.
    Yeah they come in close; maybe get a hit and then get Paralysed putting them at a huge disadvantage (and it’s very possible that at least one of them might get Paralysed even if they primarily stay at a long range because of Prankster). Are you assuming that Lunatone and Solrock have superior psychic powers than the Meowstic duo (as in why can’t they just use their own telekinetic abilities to neutralize)?


    ...um they'll Light Screen and reflect it back? Lol. It took literal Thunder Armor aka Super Guts from Swellow to break through the Light Screen. A H.H-boosted Dark Pulse is still a pure Special attack that's getting blocked and reflected, and certainly isn't comparable to Thunder Armor. Except...this Solrock can rapidfire Solar Beams.
    Their LS acts like Mirror Coat? Oh wow there was even more PIS in that battle than I remember. The more reasonable assumption would be that the “reflection” part was done via their psychic powers in which case it would be impossible to do that with Dark Pulse by definition. Also by definition Swellow didn’t have to break through anything since it was using a physical attack. In addition let’s not act like super Guts was “just enough” to pull off the win; Swellow completely stomped post TA a.k.a even something significantly below that lvl should be capable of getting the win. Like I said Dark Pulse with HH + SE + LS factored in would still theoretically have 1.5 times effectiveness a.k.a would be the most effective direct attack in the battle. Wasn’t that because they were battling in an open field in day time with a lot of sun light? Eh whatever let’s say Solarbeam can be used like a normal move since that’s the feat we have to go on. Anyways I’m still waiting for a refutation of the crux of my case for why Olympia would win.
    Peakachu Progression: Surge2 (Kanto) -> Drake (OI) -> Clair2 (Johto) -> Tyson (Hoenn) -> Brandon3 (BF) -> Tobias (Sinnoh) -> Alain3 (Kalos)

    OS -> AG -> DP -> XY encompasses the character and skill progression of the true Ash!

    N - "My ideals will shatter the truth of this world!"

  11. #3361
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    Quote Originally Posted by Genaller View Post
    Yeah they come in close; maybe get a hit and then get Paralysed putting them at a huge disadvantage (and it’s very possible that at least one of them might get Paralysed even if they primarily stay at a long range because of Prankster). Are you assuming that Lunatone and Solrock have superior psychic powers than the Meowstic duo (as in why can’t they just use their own telekinetic abilities to neutralize)?
    Or they could land the hit and then got out of range due to their surprising mobility. For the last time, they at least have the option of a physical, close-contact move. The Meowstics are literally only restricted to ranged, special attacks.

    Their LS acts like Mirror Coat? Oh wow there was even more PIS in that battle than I remember. The more reasonable assumption would be that the “reflection” part was done via their psychic powers in which case it would be impossible to do that with Dark Pulse by definition.
    LOL don't make up convenient assumptions. The LS reflects the Dark Pulse.

    Also by definition Swellow didn’t have to break through anything since it was using a physical attack. In addition let’s not act like super Guts was “just enough” to pull off the win; Swellow completely stomped post TA a.k.a even something significantly below that lvl should be capable of getting the win. Like I said Dark Pulse with HH + SE + LS factored in would still theoretically have 1.5 times effectiveness a.k.a would be the most effective direct attack in the battle. Wasn’t that because they were battling in an open field in day time with a lot of sun light? Eh whatever let’s say Solarbeam can be used like a normal move since that’s the feat we have to go on. Anyways I’m still waiting for a refutation of the crux of my case for why Olympia would win.
    -.- Lol, you've been refuted in consecutive posts bud. I'm still waiting for you to tell me how an empowered Dark Pulse penetrates that Light Screen. Unless you mean to tell me that Ash pointlessly resorted to Thunder Armor because that Light Screen was actually weaksauce.

    Again, this is a bad match-up for Olympia. Doesn't mean she's worse than T&L, but trying to shoehorn #logic of "Olympia more experienced = automatic win" is just dumb. And I'm not ruling out the possibility of her winning, but it's not guaranteed whatsoever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Navin View Post
    Or they could land the hit and then got out of range due to their surprising mobility. For the last time, they at least have the option of a physical, close-contact move. The Meowstics are literally only restricted to ranged, special attacks.
    Forgive me but I don’t see Tackle being the deciding factor. You can speculate all you want but you can’t refute the claim that “the non-zero probability of Solrock and Lunatone getting Paralyzed increases significantly if they try a close range attack”. So apparently those utility moves don’t count for the Meowstic?


    LOL don't make up convenient assumptions. The LS reflects the Dark Pulse.
    The anime in general has been inconsistent about how the same move works for different Pokémon, but they do maintain consistency within the same battle a.k.a either both LS reflect attacks or neither do. Actually we know that telekinetic abilities are independently capable of reflecting attacks ever since Sabrina, so it’s a pretty viable assumption.


    -.- Lol, you've been refuted in consecutive posts bud. I'm still waiting for you to tell me how an empowered Dark Pulse penetrates that Light Screen. Unless you mean to tell me that Ash pointlessly resorted to Thunder Armor because that Light Screen was actually weaksauce.
    Please look up the word “crux”. You haven’t refuted that A) the Meowstic duo have the net move advantage and B) they have far more teamwork skill than 2 Pokémon that just started working coherently together. What part of LS has no bearing on physical moves and Swellow post “Guts” utterly stomped Lunatone and Solrock do you not understand?

    Again, this is a bad match-up for Olympia. Doesn't mean she's worse than T&L, but trying to shoehorn #logic of "Olympia more experienced = automatic win" is just dumb. And I'm not ruling out the possibility of her winning, but it's not guaranteed whatsoever.
    Yeah; a bad match up for Tate&Liza . Yeah; She’s considerably better. Hey I’ll take my #logic over your #”common sense” anytime. Oh stop strawmanning. She’d win 7-8/10. Also in general Sinnoh and Kalos gym leaders are just flat-out superior to Hoenn gym leaders (I know your AG fanboyism must raging out right now). Either that or Hoenn has an absurdly large population.
    Last edited by Genaller; Yesterday at 11:56 PM.
    Peakachu Progression: Surge2 (Kanto) -> Drake (OI) -> Clair2 (Johto) -> Tyson (Hoenn) -> Brandon3 (BF) -> Tobias (Sinnoh) -> Alain3 (Kalos)

    OS -> AG -> DP -> XY encompasses the character and skill progression of the true Ash!

    N - "My ideals will shatter the truth of this world!"

  13. #3363
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    Quote Originally Posted by Genaller View Post
    Forgive me but I don’t see Tackle being the deciding factor. You can speculate all you want but you can’t refute the claim that “the non-zero probability of Solrock and Lunatone getting Paralyzed increases significantly if they try a close range attack”. So apparently those utility moves don’t count for the Meowstic?
    Don't put words in my mouth -.-. Sure, coming in close definitely increases the risk of getting T-waved, but it's probably likely T&L aren't going to go for a close-range attack (especially when they have the defense and ranged moves to defend against the Meowstics) unless they have a high-probability chance of landing Tackles.

    The anime in general has been inconsistent about how the same move works for different Pokémon, but they do maintain consistency within the same battle a.k.a either both LS reflect attacks or neither do. Actually we know that telekinetic abilities are independently capable of reflecting attacks ever since Sabrina, so it’s a pretty viable assumption.
    There is inconsistency and there's also variance. Not once was Psychic was ever called out or implied (besides Psychic has been mainly depicted as physical immobilization and control, not redirecting attacks). It might be broken af, but that Light Screen apparently can redirect those attacks.

    Please look up the word “crux”. You haven’t refuted that A) the Meowstic duo have the net move advantage and B) they have far more teamwork skill than 2 Pokémon that just started working coherently together. What part of LS has no bearing on physical moves and Swellow post “Guts” utterly stomped Lunatone and Solrock do you not understand?
    Bro, you're just repeating stuff that I've already acknowledged. What part do you not understand that simply having a "net move advantage" (whatever the hell that means) or having more experience =/= automatic win?

    FFS, I'm still waiting to hear how those special, ranged attacks of the Meowstics get past a powerful Light Screen. Anytime now.


    Yeah; a bad match up for Tate&Liza . Yeah; She’s considerably better. Hey I’ll take my #logic over your #”common sense” anytime. Oh stop strawmanning. She’d win 7-8/10. Also in general Sinnoh and Kalos gym leaders are just flat-out superior to Hoenn gym leaders (I know your AG fanboyism must raging out right now). Either that or Hoenn has an absurdly large population.
    ???

    Not living up to your reputation mate. Don't see how any of that in bold is relevant.

    I don't understand why you're getting so riled up by the fact that a certain trainer could be better but can struggle in a bad match-up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Navin View Post
    Don't put words in my mouth -.-. Sure, coming in close definitely increases the risk of getting T-waved, but it's probably likely T&L aren't going to go for a close-range attack (especially when they have the defense and ranged moves to defend against the Meowstics) unless they have a high-probability chance of landing Tackles.
    Them having Tackle doesn’t really give them any significant net advantage which was my point. Thing is because of Prankster (increases speed of utility moves) T-Wave still has a chance of working even at a range and that probability goes way up if they’re close. Actually the female Meowstic’s Keen Eye is implies to have also affected the accuracy of the male Meowstic’s moves, so I’m this case chances are very high that Paralysis is happening in this battle regardless of what T&L do. So are we assuming both sides have info on each other? Pretty sure Olympia would use T-Wave at the optimal time.



    There is inconsistency and there's also variance. Not once was Psychic was ever called out or implied (besides Psychic has been mainly depicted as physical immobilization and control, not redirecting attacks). It might be broken af, but that Light Screen apparently can redirect those attacks.
    You may want to rewatch Ash vs Sabrina. Also telekinetic abilities needn’t be directly called for in order to be used (like how the Meowstic use them for floating and of course Mega Gardevoir’s “full power”). Like I said there is never any inconsistency within the same battle a.k.a either both get hax LS or neither do. Even if LS does work like Mirror Coat, Future Sight would still get through and not be affected by type chart effectiveness (look it up; it can’t even be blocked by Protect). Also when protecting multiplie Pokémon LS’s effect is lowered now only reducing damage to .67.


    Bro, you're just repeating stuff that I've already acknowledged. What part do you not understand that simply having a "net move advantage" (whatever the hell that means) or having more experience =/= automatic win?

    FFS, I'm still waiting to hear how those special, ranged attacks of the Meowstics get past a powerful Light Screen. Anytime now.
    Automatic win? No. Significant factors in determining who wins? Absolutely yes! Now I’m repeating myself: because even with LS net effectiveness would still be 2 and telekinetic abilities can’t be used to redirect Dark Moves. Heck HH Dark Pulse may even break through LS like how X-Scissor broke through Trick Room.


    Not living up to your reputation mate. Don't see how any of that in bold is relevant.
    Would you like me to explain how the first 3 of those sentences respond to your previous post? The fourth is actuallly a callback to an early debate we had about relative statistical variance in gym leaders and league trainers (variance would be much higher for GLs because they are relatively far fewer in number) with my conclusion being that league participant count is far more a reflection of aggregate GL quality rather than aggregate league trainer quality.

    I don't understand why you're getting so riled up by the fact that a certain trainer could be better but can struggle in a bad match-up.
    I’ve never understood why you get so incessantly stubborn whenever anything related to AG trainers/battles comes up (this is why you have the reputation of “biggest AG fan” eventhough you yourself admit to liking DP more overall).

    EDIT: The real reason why we can’t come to a consensus is because Tate&Liza was a poorly written battle.

    EDIT2: Okay I’ve rewatched both battles. Let’s first clear up some definitions:

    - MLS = Meowstic Light Screen has LS’s traditional effect.

    - LLS = Lunatone Light Screen has the effect of acting as a frontal barrier (with respect to Lunatone only) that redirects any special move and does not stay as a field effect a.k.a must be called each time before being used.

    The methods for countering LLS:

    - Catch Lunatone off guard which for example at least the first 2 Future Sights should be able to do.

    - Make sure the attack reaches Lunatone fast enough such that Lunatone doesn’t have time to use LLS (like a point blank attack)

    - Create distance between Lunatone and Solrock making the latter an easy target since Lunatone needs to be in front of the attack targeting Solrock in order to Protect it with LLS

    - There is precedent for Dark Pulse especially one boosted with Helping Hand breaking through LLS (a Psychic type move) since X-Scissor was able to break through Trick Room (and Dark outclasses Psychic by an even greater degree than Bug does)

    - If Lunatone gets Paralyzed (likely due to Parnkster + Keen Eye as described by Sycamore when talking about the Meowstic duo), then all Olympia need do is launch attacks at the moments where the Paralysis has its immobilizing effects preventing Lunatone from using LLS

    - Redirecting the attacks via telekinetic abilities or otherwise (e.g. manually altering beam trajectory) around LLS which only covers the front unlike a traditional LS which is omnidirectional

    There you go. LLS isn’t nearly as invincible as you made it out to be and since that was your main point in favor of T&L, I think we can finally put this debate to rest. Also it seems reasonable (even with TA boost factored in) to say that the Meowstic duo are significantly more durable than Lunatone and Solrock are. Last but not least; I seriously doubt that someone who made a rookie mistake in using LS against a physical move is going to beat one of the most tactically sound gym leaders in the series. Final Verdict: Olympia takes it 8/10. there’s a reason I have that “reputation” in the first place
    Last edited by Genaller; Today at 3:43 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Genaller
    Even if LS does work like Mirror Coat, Future Sight would still get through and not be affected by type chart effectiveness (look it up; it can’t even be blocked by Protect).
    Considering how quickly Lunatone/Solrock reacted to Swellow/Pikachu's dive after clearing the Double Team, they could outright dodge it if the battling area is large enough. Even if Future Sight lands, either Tate or Liza would have the timing to plan for it in case Olympia uses it again.

    Automatic win? No. Significant factors in determining who wins? Absolutely yes! Now I’m repeating myself: because even with LS net effectiveness would still be 2 and telekinetic abilities can’t be used to redirect Dark Moves. Heck HH Dark Pulse may even break through LS like how X-Scissor broke through Trick Room.
    I am failing to see why Dark moves aren't being redirected. I also don't see how or why H.H-Dark Pulse is breaking through LS. It's not at all like a Special-Attack-Powered-Guts-Armor, or like X-Scissor. Pikachu's Thunderbolt packs a heavy punch too, and that did nothing to the Light Screen.

    Would you like me to explain how the first 3 of those sentences respond to your previous post? The fourth is actuallly a callback to an early debate we had about relative statistical variance in gym leaders and league trainers (variance would be much higher for GLs because they are relatively far fewer in number) with my conclusion being that league participant count is far more a reflection of aggregate GL quality rather than aggregate league trainer quality.
    Stick to the topic.

    I’ve never understood why you get so incessantly stubborn whenever anything related to AG trainers/battles comes up (this is why you have the reputation of “biggest AG fan” eventhough you yourself admit to liking DP more overall).
    Um...lol. Must be annoying when the "biggest AG fan" repeatedly trounces you in every debate then :P.
    Last edited by Navin; Today at 4:05 AM.

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    Look at the edit -.-. It’s over MAL; I’ve already called checkmate (also I completely destroyed you in the last major debate we had before your hiatus).
    Peakachu Progression: Surge2 (Kanto) -> Drake (OI) -> Clair2 (Johto) -> Tyson (Hoenn) -> Brandon3 (BF) -> Tobias (Sinnoh) -> Alain3 (Kalos)

    OS -> AG -> DP -> XY encompasses the character and skill progression of the true Ash!

    N - "My ideals will shatter the truth of this world!"

  17. #3367
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    Quote Originally Posted by Genaller View Post
    - Catch Lunatone off guard which for example at least the first 2 Future Sights should be able to do. - Make sure the attack reaches Lunatone fast enough such that Lunatone doesn’t have time to use LLS (like a point blank attack) - If Lunatone gets Paralyzed (likely due to Parnkster + Keen Eye as described by Sycamore when talking about the Meowstic duo), then all Olympia need do is launch attacks at the moments where the Paralysis has its immobilizing effects preventing Lunatone from using LLS
    Those are wonderful hypotheticals IF they happen, which they could also not. <- Makes sense after considering how defensively T&L battle (preparing for the Future Sight), with Lunatone/Solrock covering each others back, and both having no problem in dodging or blocking attacks quickly.

    - Create distance between Lunatone and Solrock making the latter an easy target since Lunatone needs to be in front of the attack targeting Solrock in order to Protect it with LLS
    You do realize this Solrock is nimble, and its entire moveset can help defend itself (rapid-fire Solar Beams, buffeting Sandstorms, immobilizing Psychic) even if potentially separated from Lunatone.

    There is precedent for Dark Pulse especially one boosted with Helping Hand breaking through LLS (a Psychic type move) since X-Scissor was able to break through Trick Room (and Dark outclasses Psychic by an even greater degree than Bug does)
    Nope. An empowered Dark Pulse is not like a Thunder Armor or X-Scissor breaking a barrier.

    - Redirecting the attacks via telekinetic abilities or otherwise (e.g. manually altering beam trajectory) around LLS which only covers the front unlike a traditional LS which is omnidirectional
    Um...so Lunatone turns around and Light Screens at whatever angle the attacking is coming? Lol.

    There you go. LLS isn’t nearly as invincible as you made it out to be and since that was your main point in favor of T&L, I think we can finally put this debate to rest. Also it seems reasonable (even with TA boost factored in) to say that the Meowstic duo are significantly more durable than Lunatone and Solrock are. Last but not least; I seriously doubt that someone who made a rookie mistake in using LS against a physical move is going to beat one of the most tactically sound gym leaders in the series. Final Verdict: Olympia takes it 8/10. there’s a reason I have that “reputation” in the first place
    Quote Originally Posted by Genaller View Post
    Look at the edit -.-. It’s over MAL; I’ve already called checkmate (also I completely destroyed you in the last major debate we had before your hiatus).
    That's it? Disappointing.

  18. #3368
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    Quote Originally Posted by Navin View Post
    Those are wonderful hypotheticals IF they happen, which they could also not. <- Makes sense after considering how defensively T&L battle (preparing for the Future Sight), with Lunatone/Solrock covering each others back, and both having no problem in dodging or blocking attacks quickly.
    I’m working on a pretty simple assumption; XY Ash is an Upper bound of T&L’s skill. For the first iteration they’ll have no idea when Future Sight strikes and will also have to focus on the actual battle a.k.a the probability is high that they're getting struck. For the 2nd iteration assuming they catch on as quickly as Ash did, 1 sibling will time FS while the other commands both Pokémon meaning that the 2 heads advantage gets thrown out the window making the difference in experience all the more vital. Since no warning can be given as to when FS strikes probability is again on FS’s side to succeed. The third iteration onwards is at a minimum the first one where they can actually plan for it though it will depend on the battle situation at that moment when concerning how effectively they can counter it. Notice how I said “at a minimum”. It’s also entirely possible that it could (and most likely will) take them more iterations before they come up with the timing idea if at all. Also if that “if” was referring to point 5, then I already gave justification for why the probability of that premise being fulfilled is high.


    You do realize this Solrock is nimble, and its entire moveset can help defend itself (rapid-fire Solar Beams, buffeting Sandstorms, immobilizing Psychic) even if potentially separated from Lunatone.
    HH Dark Pulse beats Solarbeam, Sandstorm for Solrock is just a ranged Ground attack with no chip damage effect. The Meowstic’s telekinetic abilities make immobilizing them highly improbable.



    Nope. An empowered Dark Pulse is not like a Thunder Armor or X-Scissor breaking a barrier.
    It’s the exact same principle as X-Scissor breaking Trick Troom (it worked cuz TR is a Psychic move and Bug beats Psychic), so you’re going to need to elaborate on why Dark Pulse breaking through LS (another Psychic type move) cuz Dark beats Psychic is incorrect. X-Scissor took multiple hits, so HH can be used to attain the result in 1 strike ( not to mention that Dark is immune to Psychic whereas Bug is hit neutrally by Psychic a.k.a Dark hard-counters Psychic far more than even Bug can). Also lol Swellow broke through with Quick Attack (doesn’t matter if it was juiced up with energy from Thunder; it converted that energy to extra power in Quick Attack and so that QA was still entirely a physical move). It really just shows what a rookie Liza was to try and defend a physical move with LS.


    Um...so Lunatone turns around and Light Screens at whatever angle the attacking is coming? Lol.
    Firstly that only further delays Lunatone’s minimum required time to set up an LS block; secondly what will Lunatone do if attacks are coming from multiple cardinal directions?

    No attempt at countering points 2 and 5 then? Okay. I gave 6 methods; however, Olympia would only need any combination of 2 or 3 of those methods to work effectively in order to beat LLS which is her main obstacle by your admission.


    That's it? Disappointing.
    All bark and no bite are we? Then the points made in the your penultimate quote of me still stand.
    Last edited by Genaller; Today at 1:52 PM.
    Peakachu Progression: Surge2 (Kanto) -> Drake (OI) -> Clair2 (Johto) -> Tyson (Hoenn) -> Brandon3 (BF) -> Tobias (Sinnoh) -> Alain3 (Kalos)

    OS -> AG -> DP -> XY encompasses the character and skill progression of the true Ash!

    N - "My ideals will shatter the truth of this world!"

  19. #3369
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    Quote Originally Posted by Genaller View Post
    I’m working on a pretty simple assumption; XY Ash is an Upper bound of T&L’s skill. For the first iteration they’ll have no idea when Future Sight strikes and will also have to focus on the actual battle a.k.a the probability is high that they're getting struck. For the 2nd iteration assuming they catch on as quickly as Ash did, 1 sibling will time FS while the other commands both Pokémon meaning that the 2 heads advantage gets thrown out the window making the difference in experience all the more vital.
    Uh, Ash wasn't battling defensively like T&L; ergo, he was much more prone for the FS to hit Fletchinder and Frogadier.

    Lol. Because 1 person can't count and call out simple commands? It was harder for Ash because he had to think of offensive combos. Not difficult to count and say "Light Screen!"; not to mention the fact that the other twin could cover and call out any moves in case the other gets somehow distracted.

    Since no warning can be given as to when FS strikes probability is again on FS’s side to succeed. The third iteration onwards is at a minimum the first one where they can actually plan for it though it will depend on the battle situation at that moment when concerning how effectively they can counter it. Notice how I said “at a minimum”. It’s also entirely possible that it could (and most likely will) take them more iterations before they come up with the timing idea if at all. Also if that “if” was referring to point 5, then I already gave justification for why the probability of that premise being fulfilled is high.
    Lol. These two are (the seventh) gym leaders; they know how to count, and their style will make them more than ready for any iteration of FS (even the very first one considering how quickly Solrock/Lunatone responded to Swellow's dive).

    HH Dark Pulse beats Solarbeam, Sandstorm for Solrock is just a ranged Ground attack with no chip damage effect. The Meowstic’s telekinetic abilities make immobilizing them highly improbable.
    So how is HH Dark Pulse beating Solarbeam? Sandstorm doesn't need to heavily damage, just throwing the Meowstics off-position would suffice. Cool, Solrock/Lunatone also have telekinetic abilities.

    It’s the exact same principle as X-Scissor breaking Trick Troom (it worked cuz TR is a Psychic move and Bug beats Psychic), so you’re going to need to elaborate on why Dark Pulse breaking through LS (another Psychic type move) cuz Dark beats Psychic is incorrect. X-Scissor took multiple hits, so HH can be used to attain the result in 1 strike ( not to mention that Dark is immune to Psychic whereas Bug is hit neutrally by Psychic a.k.a Dark hard-counters Psychic far more than even Bug can). Also lol Swellow broke through with Quick Attack (doesn’t matter if it was juiced up with energy from Thunder; it converted that energy to extra power in Quick Attack and so that QA was still entirely a physical move). It really just shows what a rookie Liza was to try and defend a physical move with LS.
    Lmao. X-Scissor and Thunder Armor directly penetrating a barrier is not at all the same as a beam hitting Light Screen (y'know, the very thing that this Light Screen is meant to block against and would absolutely reflect back onto the Meowstics).

    Firstly that only further delays Lunatone’s minimum required time to set up an LS block; secondly what will Lunatone do if attacks are coming from multiple cardinal directions?
    ...? Prioritize, and have Solrock fire a sweeping Solar Beam in the other directions.

    No attempt at countering points 2 and 5 then? Okay. I gave 6 methods; however, Olympia would only need any combination of 2 or 3 of those methods to work effectively in order to beat LLS which is her main obstacle by your admission. All bark and no bite are we? Then the points made in the your penultimate quote of me still stand.
    I did (read bro).

    Still waiting for a good argument. At least you're saying something now, other than the initial "Olympia more experience = automatic win."

  20. #3370
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    Quote Originally Posted by Navin View Post
    Uh, Ash wasn't battling defensively like T&L; ergo, he was much more prone for the FS to hit Fletchinder and Frogadier.

    Lol. Because 1 person can't count and call out simple commands? It was harder for Ash because he had to think of offensive combos. Not difficult to count and say "Light Screen!"; not to mention the fact that the other twin could cover and call out any moves in case the other gets somehow distracted.
    It’s not too difficult once they come up with the idea. The issue is they’re not competent/intuitive enough to come up with the timing idea as fast as Ash would. You seem to be underestimating that they’re fighting a full-fledged battle while the FS stuff is going on. Yeah and 1 vs 1 the difference in experience will very clearly show.



    Lol. These two are (the seventh) gym leaders; they know how to count, and their style will make them more than ready for any iteration of FS (even the very first one considering how quickly Solrock/Lunatone responded to Swellow's dive).
    They are also new gym leaders that just learnt how to work together coherently. You seem to be underestimating FS’s speed (there’s a reason that Ash was only able to counter it by knowing when FS would strike before the fact).


    So how is HH Dark Pulse beating Solarbeam? Sandstorm doesn't need to heavily damage, just throwing the Meowstics off-position would suffice. Cool, Solrock/Lunatone also have telekinetic abilities.
    Because it’s the stronger move. They can just redirect their attacks accordingly. Yeah and the Meowstic’s are superior because... wait for it... they’re way more experienced with not only their telekinetic powers but also with using them in conjunction with each other.


    Lmao. X-Scissor and Thunder Armor directly penetrating a barrier is not at all the same as a beam hitting Light Screen (y'know, the very thing that this Light Screen is meant to block against and would absolutely reflect back onto the Meowstics).
    Doesn’t change the fact that Light Screen is a Psychic type move and Dark beats Psychic, so yeah by anime logic it’s totally capable of breaking through especially with an HH enhancement. Being designed to deflect special moves doesn’t mean it can literally deflect every special move (it’s pretty easy to show how this line of thinking leads to reductio ad absurdum). The Quick Attack case (yeah Quick Attack which was the actual attack and not TA which was just a power amplifier) just shows how incompetent and inexperienced Liza really is.


    ...? Prioritize, and have Solrock fire a sweeping Solar Beam in the other directions.
    In that case just redirect out of LLS’s path at the last second and have both attacks focus on Solrock (and no Solarbeam isn’t stopping both). Olympia seems to value timing very heavily (it’s what she was testing Ash on), so she would be able to pull off such precise maneuvers and catch the inexperienced twins off guard.


    I did (read bro).
    Sorry man, but I don’t have the confirmation bias tinted lenses that you’re currently prescribed to.
    Still waiting for a good argument. At least you're saying something now, other than the initial "Olympia more experience = automatic win."
    Yeah because incompetent rookies can apparently beat one of the most experienced and tactically oriented gym leaders in the series more times than they would not by your #”common sense”. LLS isn’t nearly as great as you’re making it out to be: end of story (I’ve given 6 methods and not even half of them need to be effectively pulled off in a given match in order for Olympia to get the win a.k.a probability is on my side). Yeah just keep strawmanning; when discussing who wins we’re considering the aggregate battle; T&L could win on a given day (if all the stars aligned and they got extremely lucky by having most uncertain variables play out in their favor).
    Last edited by Genaller; Today at 6:05 PM.
    Peakachu Progression: Surge2 (Kanto) -> Drake (OI) -> Clair2 (Johto) -> Tyson (Hoenn) -> Brandon3 (BF) -> Tobias (Sinnoh) -> Alain3 (Kalos)

    OS -> AG -> DP -> XY encompasses the character and skill progression of the true Ash!

    N - "My ideals will shatter the truth of this world!"

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