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Thread: The Pokemon Anime Versus Thread

  1. #1051
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    Quote Originally Posted by AdvancedGenGenesect View Post
    and there's no doubt he's in ash's Top 5 strongest Pokémon but he just isn't invincible.
    345ash-greninja and half of the other XY&Z fans would have us think otherwise. :/

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    Quote Originally Posted by AdvancedGenGenesect View Post
    Y'all shouldnt forget it's a mystery wether AG and ash were trying to handle the intense power of AG as XY went on or if AG was just getting more powerful and he was able to control his power for a longer period of time.
    Nevertheless AG was A Beast and THE Beast of XY and there's no doubt he's in ash's Top 5 strongest Pokémon but he just isn't invincible.
    Stop exaggerating. No one's claiming he's invincible (which by definition would put him over all other trainer Pokémon including Champion Megas). I'm claiming he's bounded from above by MC X and from below by Base Gardevoir. I've thought about this for a long time and from my perspective the evidence points towards A-G being somewhere in the E4 Mega/Champion Ace range. I believe I outlined the posts of mine 1 should read in order to gain a good understanding of my thoughts in a previous post. No one's ever properly countered my argument for this. The most I've gotten are alternative possibilities that frankly entail far more assumptions than my argument does (I know this sounds arrogant, but I'm just being honest about my thoughts). If you or anyone else can provide a sound argument for why A-G does not place where I claim it does (that states all facts(observations), assumptions and conclusions derived(Inferences)), then I'm all ears. Anyways regardless as long as you can accept that A-G is atleast somewhere in the E4 spectrum then I can respect your viewpoint and we can leave it at that.

    To summarize my thoughts on the current discussion:

    A-G vs Sceptile -> good fight with a definitive win for A-G
    A-G vs Sceptile+Heracross -> very close match that could go either way
    A-G vs Sceptile+Heracross+Gible -> If Gible manages to get damage in by use of some clever tactic then A-G definitively looses though still in a close match. Otherwise same as the 2nd case

    In all 3 cases adding in Torkoal would result in no change. Essentially what I'm stating is that there is an upper limit regarding the delta (or difference) between 2 Pokémon such that the inferior Pokémon can cause damage to the superior Pokémon. The delta between A-G and Torkoal (atleast from my perspective) exceeds this limit and hence Torkoal would be unable to cause A-G any damage. For the specific context Torkoal won't be able to hit A-G due to the sheer speed disparity and will be overwhelmed by WS(s). The delta between Gible and A-G is right on the threshold of this limit so damage is plausible; however, only if Gible does something unconventional (which admittably he is well known for).
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  3. #1053
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    Quote Originally Posted by Genaller View Post
    Stop exaggerating. No one's claiming he's invincible (which by definition would put him over all other trainer Pokémon including Champion Megas). I'm claiming he's bounded from above by MC X and from below by Base Gardevoir. I've thought about this for a long time and from my perspective the evidence points towards A-G being somewhere in the E4 Mega/Champion Ace range. I believe I outlined the posts of mine 1 should read in order to gain a good understanding of my thoughts in a previous post. No one's ever properly countered my argument for this. The most I've gotten are alternative possibilities that frankly entail far more assumptions than my argument does (I know this sounds arrogant, but I'm just being honest about my thoughts). If you or anyone else can provide a sound argument for why A-G does not place where I claim it does (that states all facts(observations), assumptions and conclusions derived(Inferences)), then I'm all ears. Anyways regardless as long as you can accept that A-G is atleast somewhere in the E4 spectrum then I can respect your viewpoint and we can leave it at that.

    To summarize my thoughts on the current discussion:

    A-G vs Sceptile -> good fight with a definitive win for A-G
    A-G vs Sceptile+Heracross -> very close match that could go either way
    A-G vs Sceptile+Heracross+Gible -> If Gible manages to get damage in by use of some clever tactic then A-G definitively looses though still in a close match. Otherwise same as the 2nd case

    In all 3 cases adding in Torkoal would result in no change. Essentially what I'm stating is that there is an upper limit regarding the delta (or difference) between 2 Pokémon such that the inferior Pokémon can cause damage to the superior Pokémon. The delta between A-G and Torkoal (atleast from my perspective) exceeds this limit and hence Torkoal would be unable to cause A-G any damage. For the specific context Torkoal won't be able to hit A-G due to the sheer speed disparity and will be overwhelmed by WS(s). The delta between Gible and A-G is right on the threshold of this limit so damage is plausible; however, only if Gible does something unconventional (which admittably he is well known for).
    Well, but Maldread and co. would ignore our explanations/arguements and say that we are overrating XY/Ash-Greninja xD.

    Anyway, I think Heracross might just get one hit or so, but Torkoal and Gible aren't. If Gible's Draco Meteor doesn't work(judging from Ash-Greninja vs Altaria), I can't see how Gible is landing a hit. Ash-Greninja was portrayed to be as fast as Diantha's Base Gardevoir(it was clearly shown in the battle).
    Last edited by 345ash-greninja; 21st February 2017 at 7:32 AM.
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  4. #1054
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    Quote Originally Posted by 345ash-greninja View Post
    Well, but Maldread and co. would ignore our explanations/arguements and say that we are overrating XY/Ash-Greninja xD.

    Anyway, I think Heracross might just get one hit or so, but Torkoal and Gible aren't. If Gible's Draco Meteor doesn't work(judging from Ash-Greninja vs Altaria), I can't see how Gible is landing a hit. Ash-Greninja was portrayed to be as fast as Diantha's Base Gardevoir(it was clearly shown in the battle).
    Well yeah not much we can do in that case :/

    I agree. Gible can't land DM though it may be able to get off a DP, RS or Dig by using the method I described in an earlier post though this method requires pre-match planning and still it's not guaranteed to succeed. For me Gible is at the low tier 2/high tier 3 borderline. By conventional means Gible definitely isn't getting a hit. Basicallly if the 2 Ashes get no prep time, then Gible won't get a hit in and if they do, then Gible may get a hit in (not guaranteed but plausible).
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    Quote Originally Posted by CMButch View Post
    I know I am beating the late Rapidash on this one. Answer are: 1. admins didn't forbid it and I asked here if it's okay to do it( because there is no anime vs anime in alternative thread), admins never stated it's not okay. So, I guess it's okay.
    2. This one is a stretch but OP stated: character/Pokemon X vs character/Pokemon Y. So, we can put character vs Pokemon, so it's like Ash vs Pikachu? I don't think so. INB4 , OP planned it all along.
    I don't have any problem with it, and the mods haven't said anything against it either.

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    Genos (at his peak) from One Punch Man vs A-G and MCX.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CMButch View Post
    Genos (at his peak) from One Punch Man vs A-G and MCX.
    Genos stomps. Any character whose S-class lvl or higher stomps.
    Peakachu Progression: vs Surge (Kanto) -> vs Drake (OI) -> vs Clair (Johto) -> vs Tyson (Hoenn) -> vs Brandon (BF) -> vs Tobias (Sinnoh) -> vs Alain (Kalos)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Genaller View Post
    Genos stomps. Any character whose S-class lvl or higher stomps.
    Also, don't forget Sweet Mask ( A class= who refused to go to S-class) and Saitama. Hell Saitama destroys entire Pokemonverse.

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    Please pardon my ignorance because I don't know anything about who Genos is because I don't follow the kid adventure shows other than Pokemon too much apart from Ben 10, Beyblade and Digimon. I'll just post some match-ups here-

    Ultimate Swampfire vs Mega Charizard-X
    Ultimate Cannonbolt vs Ash-Greninja
    Ultimate Echo Echo vs Mega Gardevoir
    Ultimate Humungousaur vs Mega Metagross
    Ultimate Spidermonkey vs Mega Houndoom
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    Quote Originally Posted by CMButch View Post
    Also, don't forget Sweet Mask ( A class= who refused to go to S-class) and Saitama. Hell Saitama destroys entire Pokemonverse.
    Well yeah those 2 also classify as S-class lvl+ powerwise eventhough they're not officially recognized as S-class heroes.
    Peakachu Progression: vs Surge (Kanto) -> vs Drake (OI) -> vs Clair (Johto) -> vs Tyson (Hoenn) -> vs Brandon (BF) -> vs Tobias (Sinnoh) -> vs Alain (Kalos)

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    Quote Originally Posted by 345ash-greninja View Post
    Pardon my ignorance because I don't know anything about who Genos is because I don't follow the kid adventure shows other than Pokemon too much apart from Ben 10, Beyblade and Digimon. I'll just post a match-up here-

    Ultimate Swampfire vs Mega Charizard-X
    Ultimate Cannonbolt vs Ash-Greninja
    Ultimate Echo Echo vs Mega Gardevoir
    Ultimate Humungousaur vs Mega Metagross
    Ultimate Spidermonkey vs Mega Houndoom
    Genos is from One Punch Man and OPM is definitely not kid show.

    I watch/ed Ben 10 and big fan of it I kinda look a lot of in it

    1.US wins, he's way durable: he survived hammer shot from Vilgax( remember Vilgax in OS destroys MT. Rushmore with Hammer Shot. AF/UA Vilgax is stronger. Also, IIRC Swampfire can regenerate on cellular/body pieces level( sorry it wasn't atomic). US obviously keep that ability.
    2. A-G can win if it beats UC if he doesn't move. UC when it moves it becomes unstoppable( like Juggernaut). He took hits from energy axe that can easily cut trees. So it can go either way.
    3. UE-E can destroy the tank with his sound. He can create force fields of sonic ways that can destroy town-level space station. Also, IIRC can can multiply himself. UE-E wins.
    4. Hold on, I just read Metagross, lmao I thought it was Heracross( facepalm): My apologies, I still think Humungosaur can win based on strength and durability. UH stomps easily, he's way stronger and way more durable than base H.
    5.US'webs could hold down Humungosaur and he's strong, I am going towards MH because he's fire and fire easily burns out web.
    Last edited by CMButch; 22nd February 2017 at 6:24 PM.

  12. #1062
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    Quote Originally Posted by CMButch View Post
    Genos is from One Punch Man and OPM is definitely not kid show.

    I watch/ed Ben 10 and big fan of it I kinda look a lot of in it

    1.US wins, he's way durable: he survived hammer shot from Vilgax( remember Vilgax in OS destroys MT. Rushmore with Hammer Shot. AF/UA Vilgax is stronger. Also, IIRC Swampfire can regenerate on cellular/body pieces level( sorry it wasn't atomic). US obviously keep that ability.
    MC-X is also very durable, as we all know. Ultimate Swampfire can regenerate itself, that's it's big advantage. It's fire bombs can literally destroy an area, but MC-X is a fast flyer, so it can probably evade those bombs. MC-X's Blast Burn is probably the only move which can do a significant damage on Ultimate Swampfire. Will be a chose battle, but I think that yes, Ultimate Swampfire takes it.
    2. A-G can win if it beats UC if he doesn't move. UC when it moves it becomes unstoppable( like Juggernaut). He took hits from energy axe that can easily cut trees. So it can go either way.
    The problem for Ash-Greninja will be here is that none of its moves will even leave a scratch on Ultimate Cannonbolt when it starts rolling. On the other hand, Ash-Greninja's speed+Double Team will allow it to avoid getting pummeled by Ultimate Cannonbolt. But eventually it will get tired, so Ash-Greninja will have a use a strategy like cracking the ground with Water Shuriken like it did against MC-X. That will throw Ultimate Cannonbolt's rolling off-balance and probably stop it in its tracks and then, by attacking it with a flurry of moves, Ash-Greninja can win.
    3. UE-E can destroy the tank with his sound. He can create force fields of sonic ways that can destroy town-level space station. Also, IIRC can can multiply himself. UE-E wins.
    Ultimate Echo Echo can't multiple itself, Echo Echo can. But yes, I think it's sonic waves will be too much to handle for Mega Gardevoir. But Mega Gardevoir will do some damage to Ultimate Echo Echo with Psychic before it gets defeated.
    4. Hold on, I just read Metagross, lmao I thought it was Heracross( facepalm): My apologies, I still think Humungosaur can win based on strength and durability. UH stomps easily, he's way stronger and way more durable than base H.
    Yes, I think Ultimate Humungousaur's sheer strength will be too much to handle for Mega Metagross. Mega Metagross can keep Ultimate Humungousaur at bay with Psychic and Flash Cannon for some time but in the end, Ultimate Humungousaur wins pretty decisively.
    5.US'webs could hold down Humungosaur and he's strong, I am going towards MH because he's fire and fire easily burns out web.
    Yes, I think Mega Houndoom takes this. Ultimate Spidermonkey's webs are pretty tough but they will be burnt away by Flamethrower. Plus, Mega Houndoom can use Smog to blind Ultimate Spidermonkey and then keep scorching/pummeling it with Flamethrower/Dark Pulse.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 345ash-greninja View Post
    MC-X is also very durable, as we all know. Ultimate Swampfire can regenerate itself, that's it's big advantage. It's fire bombs can literally destroy an area, but MC-X is a fast flyer, so it can probably evade those bombs. MC-X's Blast Burn is probably the only move which can do a significant damage on Ultimate Swampfire. Will be a chose battle, but I think that yes, Ultimate Swampfire takes it.

    The problem for Ash-Greninja will be here is that none of its moves will even leave a scratch on Ultimate Cannonbolt when it starts rolling. On the other hand, Ash-Greninja's speed+Double Team will allow it to avoid getting pummeled by Ultimate Cannonbolt. But eventually it will get tired, so Ash-Greninja will have a use a strategy like cracking the ground with Water Shuriken like it did against MC-X. That will throw Ultimate Cannonbolt's rolling off-balance and probably stop it in its tracks and then, by attacking it with a flurry of moves, Ash-Greninja can win.

    Ultimate Echo Echo can't multiple itself, Echo Echo can. But yes, I think it's sonic waves will be too much to handle for Mega Gardevoir. But Mega Gardevoir will do some damage to Ultimate Echo Echo with Psychic before it gets defeated.

    Yes, I think Ultimate Humungousaur's sheer strength will be too much to handle for Mega Metagross. Mega Metagross can keep Ultimate Humungousaur at bay with Psychic and Flash Cannon for some time but in the end, Ultimate Humungousaur wins pretty decisively.

    Yes, I think Mega Houndoom takes this. Ultimate Spidermonkey's webs are pretty tough but they will be burnt away by Flamethrower. Plus, Mega Houndoom can use Smog to blind Ultimate Spidermonkey and then keep scorching/pummeling it with Flamethrower/Dark Pulse.
    Pretty sure fire from BB wouldn't damage US because he has Pyrokinesis. He'd just absorb it ,also he's immune to fire.Only thing that would hurt him are those rocks,which is no-big damage. He can also use deadly plant attacks, also he's strong enough to battle Vilgax one-on-one( forgot to add those).

    Agreed. IIRC Cannonbolt survived fall form space, he left unharmed.( UC's durability is much bigger) I also agree on that strategy on hitting the ground with shuriken I just thought that UC would fly off( a little) instead of unbalancing it.

    According to Ben 10 wikia, Derrick ( writer of Omniverse) stated that UE-E can use sonic disks to duplicate.
    Last edited by CMButch; 22nd February 2017 at 8:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CMButch View Post
    Pretty sure fire from BB wouldn't damage US because he has Pyrokinesis. He'd just absorb it ,also he's immune to fire.Only thing that would hurt him are those rocks,which is no-big damage. He can also use deadly plant attacks, also he's strong enough to battle Vilgax one-on-one( forgot to add those).
    I know about Swampfire's Pyrokinesis- I actually forgot to mention specifically about the rocks rising from the erupting terrains of Blast Burn, and I think those erupting rocks will do some damage, and maybe MC-X's Tough Claws boosted Dragon Claws can do some damage. Anyway I believe MC-X will lose after a hard fought battle, because MC-X is probably one of the most tankiest Pokemon we have ever seen.

    Agreed. IIRC Cannonbolt survived fall form space, he left unharmed.( UC's durability is much bigger) I also agree on that strategy on hitting the ground with shuriken I just thought that UC would fly off( a little) instead of unbalancing it.
    Yes, I think that strategy of hitting the ground with Water Shuriken will give Ash-Greninja a good chance of winning, because the shockwave created would throw Ultimate Cannonbolt's rolling off-balance and then, at the nick of time Ash-Greninja will have to strike it with some quick Aerial Aces and Cuts in the weak points of Ultimate Cannonbolt.

    According to Ben 10 wikia, Derrick ( writer of Omniverse) stated that UE-E can use sonic disks to duplicate.
    I see, that wasn't shown in the anime, so didn't know it.

    And yes I'll give another match-up- Ultimate Big Chill vs Lysandre's Mega Gyarados.
    Last edited by 345ash-greninja; 22nd February 2017 at 9:04 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 345ash-greninja View Post
    I know about Swampfire's Pyrokinesis- I actually forgot to mention specifically about the rocks rising from the erupting terrains of Blast Burn, and I think those erupting rocks will do some damage, and maybe MC-X's Tough Claws boosted Dragon Claws can do some damage. Anyway I believe MC-X will lose after a hard fought battle, because MC-X is probably one of the most tankiest Pokemon we have ever seen.


    Yes, I think that strategy of hitting the ground with Water Shuriken will give Ash-Greninja a good chance of winning, because the shockwave created would throw Ultimate Cannonbolt's rolling off-balance and then, at the nick of time Ash-Greninja will have to strike it with some quick Aerial Aces and Cuts in the weak points of Ultimate Cannonbolt.


    I see, that wasn't shown in the anime, so didn't know it.
    Just a quick off-topic question since we're on it. You think some Ben 10 series are better than Pokemon series.How would you rank those?

    And what do you think of Ben 10 reboot?

    I'd go: Ultimate Alien>Alien Force>XY>Original=Omniverse=DP>AG=SM>BW=Kanto & OI>Johto>>>>>>>>s*it>>>>Ben 10 reboot.

    For me Ben 10 reboot is awful, it's disgrace to Ben 10 franchise. If it was like Samurai Jack new season( Ben older, better action, better animation) ( on Adult Swim) it'd be much better.

    (To mods:Sorry for this off-topic question ,just wanted to see Ben 10's fan opinion, since it's so rare to see Ben 10 fan, mostly people s*it on it( Ben 10 in general), or don't care about it.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by CMButch View Post
    Just a quick off-topic question since we're on it. You think some Ben 10 series are better than Pokemon series.How would you rank those?

    And what do you think of Ben 10 reboot?

    I'd go: Ultimate Alien>Alien Force>XY>Original=Omniverse=DP>AG=SM>BW=Kanto & OI>Johto>>>>>>>>s*it>>>>Ben 10 reboot.

    For me Ben 10 reboot is awful, it's disgrace to Ben 10 franchise. If it was like Samurai Jack new season( Ben older, better action, better animation) ( on Adult Swim) it'd be much better.

    (To mods:Sorry for this off-topic question ,just wanted to see Ben 10's fan opinion, since it's so rare to see Ben 10 fan, mostly people s*it on it( Ben 10 in general), or don't care about it.)
    I'll say Ultimate Alien=XY>Alien Force=DP>Ben 10 original=>OS>Omniverse=>BW. I don't know, I really hated Omniverse and didn't even regularly watch it because of Ben's horrible design change. And regarding the reboot, nothing to say.

    I edited my last post and gave another matchup, but I guess that would be too one-sided.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 345ash-greninja View Post
    I'll say Ultimate Alien=XY>Alien Force=DP>Ben 10 original=>OS>Omniverse=>BW. I don't know, I really hated Omniverse and didn't even regularly watch it because of Ben's horrible design change. And regarding the reboot, nothing to say.

    I edited my last post and gave another matchup, but I guess that would be too one-sided.
    I just saw, well, UBC wins. I'd even say BC wins because of this feat:
    http://fat.gfycat.com/AridAngryHamadryas.webm

    That furnace was drilling through dimension IIRC and is like 3.500 C.( this was BC's doing). UBC's ice powers are much stronger than BC's. (Albedo even said that he going in BC form could make absolute zero; just pointing it out).Plus he can go intangible/invisible. I can see BC/UBC freezing Gyarados alive.BTW, did you watch Tennyson vs Universe (Omniverse) episode? It was pretty good( you said you don't watch it regularly, so you watched something xd). From that episode Ben can freely control Alien X without heads interrupting. That's pretty cool, also in one Omniverse episode, Ben's Ultimatrix reacted MFTL (Big Bang explosion started happening, watch saved Ben by turning him to Feedback and Feedback stored energy from Big Bang)Another impressive feat.
    Last edited by CMButch; 22nd February 2017 at 9:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CMButch View Post
    I just saw, well, UBC wins. I'd even say BC wins because of this feat:
    http://fat.gfycat.com/AridAngryHamadryas.webm

    That furnace was drilling through dimension IIRC and is like 3.500 C.( this was BC's doing). UBC's ice powers are much stronger than BC's. (Albedo even said that he going in BC form could make absolute zero; just pointing it out).Plus he can go intangible/invisible. I can see BC/UBC freezing Gyarados alive.BTW, did you watch Tennyson vs Universe (Omniverse) episode? It was pretty good( you said you don't watch it regularly, so you watched something xd). From that episode Ben can freely control Alien X without heads interrupting. That's pretty cool, also in one Omniverse episode, Ben's Ultimatrix reacted MFTL (Big Bang explosion started happening, watch saved Ben by turning him to Feedback and Feedback stored energy from Big Bang)Another impressive feat.
    Yeah, that episode was all Ben, Chadzmuth and Alien-X. But well, I didn't like Ben's horrible character design in Omniverse+my favourite Ultimate forms also went missing and that why I didn't continue watching it afterwards. Some of Ultimate forms were actually badly treated by the writers- imagine Ultimate Way Big's only appearences resulted in a loss against Diagon. I would have really liked to see the Ultimate forms afterwards.

    Anyway, what about this- Ultimate Way Big vs Arceus(M12).
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    Quote Originally Posted by 345ash-greninja View Post
    Yeah, that episode was all Ben, Chadzmuth and Alien-X. But well, I didn't like Ben's horrible character design in Omniverse+my favourite Ultimate forms also went missing and that why I didn't continue watching it afterwards. Some of Ultimate forms were actually badly treated by the writers- imagine Ultimate Way Big's only appearences resulted in a loss against Diagon. I would have really liked to see the Ultimate forms afterwards.

    Anyway, what about this- Ultimate Way Big vs Arceus(M12).
    IDK about that one. Major problem is Arceus was stated to be "God" yet he was hurt by Earth surface level comet.Also, he has plates that would absorb all main type-attacks. UWB uses cosmic attacks, so it wouldn't probably work, since it wouldn't come under any category of those types. WB and UWB BFR'd some monsters and Vilgax. I'd say, in the end, UWB>>nerfed(PIS) Arceus( since that comet thing was PIS). Actual Arceus>>UWB(I mean Arceus would just erase that comet from existence via mind/looking at it, without taking any damage. He wouldn't even need to move an inch).
    Last edited by CMButch; 22nd February 2017 at 10:13 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by CMButch View Post
    IDK about that one. Major problem is Arceus was stated to be "God" yet he was hurt by Earth surface level comet.Also, he has plates that would absorb all main type-attacks. UWB uses cosmic attacks, so it wouldn't probably work, since it wouldn't come under any category of those types. WB and UWB BFR'd some monsters and Vilgax. I'd say, in the end, UWB>>nerfed(PIS) Arceus( since that comet thing was PIS). Actual Arceus>>UWB(I mean Arceus would just erase that comet from existence via mind/looking at it, without taking any damage. He wouldn't even need to move an inch).
    Yes I was talking about nerfed Arceus actually- Demolishing Dialga, Palkia, Giratina pretty effortlessly. But still really felt the brunt of the attack from that attack of Marcus's huge Pokemon army. Ultimate Way Big is incredibly powerful, judging by from Way Big's strength and managing to throw Diagon around, but still lost to Diagon decisively. I will say nerfed Arcues vs Ultimate Way Big- could go either way.
    Last edited by 345ash-greninja; Yesterday at 4:31 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 345ash-greninja View Post
    Yes I was talking about nerfed Arceus actually- Demolishing Dialga, Palkia, Giratina pretty effortlessly. But still really felt the brunt of the attack from that attack of Marcus's huge Pokemon army. Ultimate Way Big is incredibly powerful, judging by from Way Big's strength and managing to throw Diagon around, but I still lost to Diagon decisively. I will say nerfed Arcues vs Ultimate Way Big- could go either way.
    Ya I also think that Arceus would have infinite "PP". So he can spam billions and billions Judgements, constantly.

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