Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 33

Thread: Community POTW #005

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Bournemouth, England
    Posts
    17,723

    Default Community POTW #005

    Time for the next Pokémon of the Week and next week we have one that's not in the Alolan Pokédex



    It's Greninja and its new form, Ash-Greninja

    http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-sm/658.shtml

    Go nuts

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    New York, USA
    Posts
    1,498

    Default

    I'll go with an Ash-Greninja set.

    Greninja@life orb
    EV's: 252 speed, 252 sp atk 6 atk
    Ability: Battle bond

    hydro pump
    dark pulse
    ice beam/extrasensory/grass knot
    u-turn

    You have your 2 STAB moves, then a third move of choice for coverage. U-turn can for obvious reasons, and if predicted right, it can revenge kill something weakened, then transform.

    Although to be honest I think Protean Greninja does more damage anyway...
    FC: 5043 1366 9389

    I claimed Deoxys, and serebiiforums is my homepage. Good luck claiming it.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Moving.
    Posts
    1,740

    Default

    Standard Greninja, I guess.

    Greninja@Life Orb
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Speed
    Nature: Naive
    Ability: Protean

    Moveset:

    - Gunk Shot
    - Ice Beam
    - Dark Pulse
    - Low Kick / Extrasensory / Hydro Pump / Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power Electric

    Remember when Greninja got banned from ORAS OU? This was the set that got it banned. Gunk Shot was one of the moves that pushed it over the edge thanks to its ability to KO its former check Azumarill, and now it is able to catch the Tapus on the switch, particularly Tapu Bulu. Ice Beam and Dark Pulse are its primary STABs, allowing it to cover many Grass, Dragon, and Psychic threats. The last move is based on your team; depending on who you want to hit (Mantine, Toxapex, Ferrothorn, Genesect, Heatran, Keldeo, you name it).

    I'll post more later because I am on my phone
    Last edited by Djura; 25th December 2016 at 1:32 PM.
    FC: 0447-8751-2278
    AS IGN: Djura

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    408

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by deoxysdude94 View Post
    I'll go with an Ash-Greninja set.

    Greninja@life orb
    EV's: 252 speed, 252 sp atk 6 atk
    Ability: Battle bond

    hydro pump
    dark pulse
    ice beam/extrasensory/grass knot
    u-turn

    You have your 2 STAB moves, then a third move of choice for coverage. U-turn can for obvious reasons, and if predicted right, it can revenge kill something weakened, then transform.

    Although to be honest I think Protean Greninja does more damage anyway...
    AshGreninja does quite a lot more than the regular kind with special water and dark moves and doesn't lose much damage with protean moves. Its almost like a mega evolution with an item allowed so it does insane amounts of damage. Not to mention its attack stat is massively higher.


    252 SpA Greninja-Ash Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Aggron-Mega: 187-222 (54.3 - 64.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 SpA Greninja Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Aggron-Mega: 142-168 (41.2 - 48.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


    252 SpA Greninja-Ash Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Aggron-Mega: 51-60 (14.8 - 17.4%) -- possible 6HKO
    252 SpA Protean Greninja Energy Ball vs. 252 HP / 240 SpD Aggron-Mega: 58-69 (16.8 - 20%) -- possible 5HKO


    Plus its base speed moves it up above some of the more dangerous ubers like mewtwo X, gengar, shaymin and darkrai. And max speed jolly Mega Tyranitar after it dragon dances.

  5. #5

    Default

    Greninja is amazing this gen, especially as a rain sweeper it can deal tremendous damage, even though Battle Bond is illegal with Egg moves, pre-evolution moves, and transfer moves, that Base 132 speed stat and base 153 Sp.Atk stat are hard to pass by, that's just shy of Mewtwo's Sp.Atk stat. This thing helped me through the Elite Four pretty much on its own.

    Greninja @ Life Orb / Lum Berry / Waterium Z
    Hasty nature
    252 Sp.Atk, 252 Speed, 4 HP
    Battle Bond ability
    -Water Shuriken
    -Hydro Pump
    -Dark Pulse / Ice Beam / U-Turn / Grass Knot
    -Dark Pulse / Ice Beam / U-Turn / Grass Knot

    This Greninja functions best in rain. Use for example a slow U-Turn Pelipper to get it in safely. Water Shuriken is amazing after transforming, especially in the rain. With the power boost its base power is equivalent to Scizor's Technician Bullet Punch, and that's prior to the rain boost. It also messes with Sturdy, Substitute, and Mimikyu's Disguise, and even though you're fast priority is still very useful to outrun other priority users, scarf users, or hit first when you're paralysed. Needless to say, Water Shuriken in the rain is very scary, it hits harder than Dark Pulse. Hydro Pump is your power move and hits like a ridiculous nuke in the rain, especially after transforming. It's also necessary to get sufficient power to get that first kill for transformation, as Greninja lacks power before transforming. The last two moves are coverage depending on your team. Dark Pulse is a reliable STAB move but it doesn't really cover all that much extra that Greninja has trouble with. Ice Beam is staple on water types to hit Dragons and Grass types, and U-Turn is great utility, as you keep your transformation when switching. Greninja can also run Grass Knot to cover Water types, specifically Primarina and Azumarill who resist pretty much everything else it has. Life Orb gives it even more power and is generally the best option, but Lum Berry is an option to get rid of status like paralysis. Finally, Waterium Z is an interesting option, but one-off. It gives you much more power for one turn to get that first kill, or to just hit even harder after transforming. Hydro Vortex hits really really hard in the rain.

    Personally I don't expect Battle Bond Greninja to get banned. It's very dangerous, but it requires that first kill before it can transform (unlike Mega-Evolutions) and it's very fragile. I expect it to become reasonably popular in OU rain teams though. It packs a lot more power than Kingdra for example. I also think Greninja would suffer a lot in Ubers, where it gets revenge killed too easily by ExtremeSpeed users like Rayquaza and where nothing is really weak to water, especially with Primal Groudon running around.
    Last edited by Sceptile Leaf Blade; 25th December 2016 at 1:56 PM.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    California
    Posts
    789

    Default

    The only BB set worth running is Specs. LO is outclassed by Protean since you lose important coverage and initial power on what coverage you do have, so getting the first kill is much harder. Better to just nuke stuff with STABs.

    Don't bother with Hasty either. U-turn's damage is irrelevant when it's largely for pivoting, plus if you wanted to go mixed then Naive would be better.

    Whoever's writing this, make it explicit that any HP other than Ghost is illegal on BB Greninja due to fixed IVs.
    Quote Originally Posted by mtndrew24
    spoiler ansem isnt ansem but is actually pretending to be ansem as riku inside ansem pretending to be ansem

  7. #7
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Moving.
    Posts
    1,740

    Default

    Uh, Ash-Greninja misses out on important OHKOs such as:

    252 SpA Life Orb Greninja-Ash Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 289-341 (89.4 - 105.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 328-385 (101.5 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 315-374 (97.5 - 115.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Life Orb Greninja-Ash Extrasensory vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 278-330 (86 - 102.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Ash-Greninja does not have the luxury of having access to multiple Hidden Power types or Gunk Shot and Low Kick, either.

    And for the record, Greninja cannot learn Energy Ball.
    FC: 0447-8751-2278
    AS IGN: Djura

  8. #8

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Karxrida View Post
    The only BB set worth running is Specs. LO is outclassed by Protean since you lose important coverage and initial power on what coverage you do have, so getting the first kill is much harder. Better to just nuke stuff with STABs.

    Don't bother with Hasty either. U-turn's damage is irrelevant when it's largely for pivoting, plus if you wanted to go mixed then Naive would be better.

    Whoever's writing this, make it explicit that any HP other than Ghost is illegal on BB Greninja due to fixed IVs.
    I don't really agree with this. LO in rain still hits ridiculously hard, and I think Greninja is too fragile to really do Specs well, it has too much trouble switching in with common weaknesses like fighting, fairy, and electric. Protean has better coverage power but Battle Bond just hits so much harder on the water moves it can get by with mostly neutral hits. It hits harder than Kyogre's Hydro Pump in the rain. Protean also has a lot less speed than Battle Bond, and Greninja relies on its speed. Stuff like Mega Gengar, Dragon Dance Mega Tyranitar, Weavile, Jolteon, Tapu Koko, and Darkrai are all in between those two speed stats. I'm not so sure if Darkrai will stay banned with the Dark Void nerf, so outrunning it is also beneficial.

    Quote Originally Posted by Djura View Post

    And for the record, Greninja cannot learn Energy Ball.
    Oops, forgot about that. I'll change that to Grass Knot.
    Last edited by Sceptile Leaf Blade; 26th December 2016 at 6:45 PM.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    408

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Djura View Post
    Uh, Ash-Greninja misses out on important OHKOs such as:

    252 SpA Life Orb Greninja-Ash Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 289-341 (89.4 - 105.5%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Dragonite: 328-385 (101.5 - 119.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    252 SpA Life Orb Protean Greninja Extrasensory vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 315-374 (97.5 - 115.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252 SpA Life Orb Greninja-Ash Extrasensory vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 278-330 (86 - 102.1%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    Greninja doesn't have much of a place taking on Keldeo. It needs a fairly niche move to deak with it.


    Protean Greninja loses out on some important OHKOs that Ash-Greninja gets though. Bisharp, Zard X and Thundurus are guaranteed OHKOs if life orb Ash Greninja lands a hydro pump, but are 2HKOs from protean Greninja's hydro pump. And Ash Greninja will usually OHKO Genesect. I think you might be underestimating just how hard 153 Special Attack hits with an item.

    252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 153-180 (40 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 165-195 (43.1 - 51%) -- 5.1% chance to 2HKO

    ^life orb Ash-Greninja basically does more damage than Mega Mewtwo Y when using a move of equal power. Outside of heavy rain it has a more powerful hydro pump than Primal Kyogre. And unlike most pokemon with that kind of power, it has a really strong priority move in water shuriken which makes it difficult to revenge kill.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    66

    Default

    We need to look at more than just the kind of damage Greninja can do after it changes form because its transformation is NOT mega evolution. It has to be able in a role that gets KOs any way it can, which in Greninja's case means revenge killing. As fast as its base form is, there are enough threats that outrun it in the current meta that a scarf set could be viable.

    Greninja@Choice Scarf
    EVs: 4HP/252spatk/252spd
    Timid/Modest nature
    Ability: Battle Bond
    -Hydro Pump
    -Ice Beam
    -Grass Knot
    -Dark Pulse

    Choice scarf maximizes Greninja's revenge killing potential, allowing it to come in and take out the likes of Garchomp, Pheromosa, and possibly Tapu Koko. Grass Knot is for opposing Greninja, though a lack of Hidden Power really hurts BB Greninja's chances against Gyarados and Pelipper. Greninja appreciates rain, as stated earlier in the thread, but it might also want a teammate with a slow Volt Switch or U-Turn that can soften up opposing pokemon so it can come in and finish them off. Battle bond isn't a very difficult ability to deny for any team with Blissey/Chansey, so the element of surprise that accompanies many scarf builds is of equal, if not greater, value to increasing firepower with specs/LO.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Moving.
    Posts
    1,740

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aduro View Post
    Greninja doesn't have much of a place taking on Keldeo. It needs a fairly niche move to deak with it.


    Protean Greninja loses out on some important OHKOs that Ash-Greninja gets though. Bisharp, Zard X and Thundurus are guaranteed OHKOs if life orb Ash Greninja lands a hydro pump, but are 2HKOs from protean Greninja's hydro pump. And Ash Greninja will usually OHKO Genesect. I think you might be underestimating just how hard 153 Special Attack hits with an item.

    252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 153-180 (40 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 165-195 (43.1 - 51%) -- 5.1% chance to 2HKO

    ^life orb Ash-Greninja basically does more damage than Mega Mewtwo Y when using a move of equal power. Outside of heavy rain it has a more powerful hydro pump than Primal Kyogre. And unlike most pokemon with that kind of power, it has a really strong priority move in water shuriken which makes it difficult to revenge kill.
    what

    I think you're underestimating how much STAB factors into hitting power. Bisharp and Thundurus are already guaranteed OHKOs with Low Kick and Ice Beam, respectively. Hidden Power Fire not only catches Genesect, but Scizor as well. Water Shuriken is a pretty weak priority move, only 20 BP when BB is active and three hits at a time. That Greninja-Keldeo calc was showing that the latter surviving is easier for it, and KOing back with Secret Sword.
    FC: 0447-8751-2278
    AS IGN: Djura

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    California
    Posts
    789

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Aduro View Post
    Greninja doesn't have much of a place taking on Keldeo. It needs a fairly niche move to deak with it.


    Protean Greninja loses out on some important OHKOs that Ash-Greninja gets though. Bisharp, Zard X and Thundurus are guaranteed OHKOs if life orb Ash Greninja lands a hydro pump, but are 2HKOs from protean Greninja's hydro pump. And Ash Greninja will usually OHKO Genesect. I think you might be underestimating just how hard 153 Special Attack hits with an item.

    252 SpA Mewtwo-Mega-Y Psyshock vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Arceus: 153-180 (40 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    252 SpA Life Orb Greninja-Ash Dark Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Arceus: 165-195 (43.1 - 51%) -- 5.1% chance to 2HKO

    ^life orb Ash-Greninja basically does more damage than Mega Mewtwo Y when using a move of equal power. Outside of heavy rain it has a more powerful hydro pump than Primal Kyogre. And unlike most pokemon with that kind of power, it has a really strong priority move in water shuriken which makes it difficult to revenge kill.
    Extrasensory is not niche because it also hits Toxapex and Mega Venu. To give you an idea of how useful it is, the WIP analysis Smogon has for Greninja actually slashes it with Hydro Pump.
    Quote Originally Posted by mtndrew24
    spoiler ansem isnt ansem but is actually pretending to be ansem as riku inside ansem pretending to be ansem

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Posts
    191

    Default

    Wow, I was expecting more Alola Pokemon before this guy but Ash-Greninja's quickly become one of my favorites so here goes...have mercy because I'm still starting out in competitive

    For starters, this is the first Pokemon to come directly from the anime into the games (Yellow version was based off the anime but you weren't necessarily Ash if you didn't want to be) so that's a thing. Initially it seemed that Greninja was going to be written off because of its glass cannon status that other mons could pull off better. This particular author often still calls Ash-Greninja a "poor man's Pheromosa". But he's starting to gain ground in the competitive scene and it will be exciting to see what people can do with him, as long as it's not 2017 VGC

    Pro:
    In this early stage of the game, with just the Alola Dex as competition, Ash-Greninja is one of the fastest Pokemon around. It usually goes first for me even in the Battle Royal.
    It just OOZES coolness

    Con:
    Because Ash-Greninja's not in the Alola Dex, it won't be able to be used in 2017 VGC and there's a good chance more people will want to use Protean on him instead of Battle Bond in 2018.

    A couple comments/questions about sets:

    I need to check stats because this is in-game and I'd want to optimize them for competitive...
    but these are the moves I have on my Greninja:
    Water Shuriken
    Scald
    Ice Beam
    U-Turn

    I use Scald for STAB to get the first KO and hold off on Water Shuriken until later. You wouldn't believe how many times Water Shuriken would have the power to KO but only hit twice. Battle Bond, however ups the minimum amount of hits to 3 so it's better later in the game. Ice Beam is for Grass types as well as being a solid move that has a chance to freeze. And U-Turn is good for retreat and has been good against Dark types.

    But I'm seeing a lot of people using Hydro Pump instead of Scald. It's a little surprising to me because I distinctly remember the more accurate moves being used over the stronger moves (Thunderbolt vs Thunder, Ice Beam vs Blizzard). So how does Greninja compensate?

    Also, because Greninja's such a glass cannon I thought about using a Focus item. All I have is Focus Band and I don't know if the others are better - I haven't been able to make Focus Band work but maybe once. Any particular thing I'm missing?
    Last edited by Italianbaptist; 26th December 2016 at 3:51 PM.
    John 3:16 - For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life

    3DS Friend Code - 4613 7899 0504 In-Game Name for Moon: Raphael

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Posts
    91

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Karxrida View Post
    The only BB set worth running is Specs. LO is outclassed by Protean since you lose important coverage and initial power on what coverage you do have, so getting the first kill is much harder. Better to just nuke stuff with STABs.

    Don't bother with Hasty either. U-turn's damage is irrelevant when it's largely for pivoting, plus if you wanted to go mixed then Naive would be better.

    Whoever's writing this, make it explicit that any HP other than Ghost is illegal on BB Greninja due to fixed IVs.
    Only nature you can run on it is hardy, that's the only nature it comes with and you can change its HP type with bottle caps if need be

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    66

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ampfire101 View Post
    Only nature you can run on it is hardy, that's the only nature it comes with and you can change its HP type with bottle caps if need be
    None of this is true. While the one in the demo has a fixed nature, the one received in the game proper is distinctly different. It can have any nature. Also, Hyper Training doesn't actually change IVs, it just increases stats to what they would be if the IVs were perfect. It has no effect on Hidden Power or breeding.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    California
    Posts
    789

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ampfire101 View Post
    Only nature you can run on it is hardy, that's the only nature it comes with and you can change its HP type with bottle caps if need be
    The Nature is not set and Bottle Caps cannot be used to alter Hidden Power; they only simulate higher IVs, not change them.
    Quote Originally Posted by mtndrew24
    spoiler ansem isnt ansem but is actually pretending to be ansem as riku inside ansem pretending to be ansem

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Hyderabad (India)
    Posts
    4,500

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ampfire101 View Post
    Only nature you can run on it is hardy, that's the only nature it comes with and you can change its HP type with bottle caps if need be
    The only thing set for 'Battle Bond' Greninja is its IV's and its 'Hidden Power' type (which is "Ghost" by the way), because it has fixed IV's at 20/31/20/31/20/31.

    'Bottle Caps' does not change base IV's, it just changes the final stats of the Pokemon as if it had perfect IV's.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Australia, Victoria
    Posts
    31

    Default

    All the above combinations are great and all, but that's assuming that people receive that nature when they transfer their Ash-Greninja to either Sun or Moon from the demo (mine had a Lonely nature when I transferred it)
    This combination would be for those +Atk natures (or Jolly)

    Greninja@Choice Band/ Water or Dark Z-Crystal
    Ability : Battle Bond
    Nature : any +Atk nature or Jolly
    EV's : 252 Atk, 252 Speed, 4 Special Defence
    -Waterfall
    -Night Slash
    -Aerial Ace
    -U-Turn

    Because of Greninja's initial base 95 Attack, the best chance for it to activate Battle Bond would be to faint one of the opponent's pokemon with a super effective attack or U-Turn against an opponent's death fodder. After Battle Bond activates, base 145 Attack with base 132 Speed is nothing to sneeze at.

    Waterfall and Night Slash I believe are Greninja's best physical STAB's, each also has an additional effect with Waterfall's flinch chance and Night Slash's higher critical hit ratio, which could possibly help if hax is on your side. Since this is a Choice Band set, U-Turn would be used for getting extra damage and pivoting into another team member to take an attack that Greninja wouldn't be able to. Aerial Ace might only have 60 base power, but covers some of Greninja's weaknesses (Grass, Bug, Fighting), you could run Acrobatics instead if you decide to have Greninja hold a Z-Crystal, since after the Z-Crystal is used, Acrobatics has a base power of 110.

    Any +Atk nature (especially Brave) would be outclassed by Jolly since Greninja relies on it's speed to K.O opponents. However, if you knew exactly what you could outspeed with a +Atk nature, then you'd still be able to stay alive and be a problem for your opponent.
    3DS Friend Code : 3883-8294-6545 / I currently battle for fun and as such expect no hard feelings regardless of who wins

    Return to the anime someday Serena


    Credit for the above banner goes to NintendoFan82

    Also a member of the Lillie Fan Club

    Don't mind me, just hanging out at the Altar of the Moone, appreciating it's music that IMO fits it perfectly

  19. #19

    Default

    Honestly, one of the biggest problems with Ash-Greninja in singles might just be which tier it lands in eventually. I'm pretty sure it's different enough to warrant a (potential) separate tier placement, similar to therian formes for Landorus, Thundurus, and Tornadus, but it really comes down to whether it's consigned to Ubers or gets to enjoy OU. If Ubers, it's gotta hit hard, so almost without a doubt it'll need to run a Choice Scarf or Choice Specs. If it ends up in OU, it won't need to hit quite as hard and the versatility it might get out of a LO and/or a possible mixed set (highly questionable) could be more important.

    As for Z-crystals as the held item: I'm a little iffy about Z-moves since they only get one use and then leave you itemless, but Ash-Greninja might benefit from it, if for no better reason than that it will get the KO to activate Battle Bond in a tight spot.

    No analysis of classic Greninja from me, it's just too obvious.
    The risk I took was calculated, but man, am I bad at math.

  20. #20

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by flashtone View Post
    All the above combinations are great and all, but that's assuming that people receive that nature when they transfer their Ash-Greninja to either Sun or Moon from the demo (mine had a Lonely nature when I transferred it).
    Mine was Hasty, but you can soft-reset it for different natures, similar to gift legendaries like Magearna.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    California
    Posts
    789

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by flashtone View Post
    All the above combinations are great and all, but that's assuming that people receive that nature when they transfer their Ash-Greninja to either Sun or Moon from the demo (mine had a Lonely nature when I transferred it)
    This combination would be for those +Atk natures (or Jolly)

    Greninja@Choice Band/ Water or Dark Z-Crystal
    Ability : Battle Bond
    Nature : any +Atk nature or Jolly
    EV's : 252 Atk, 252 Speed, 4 Special Defence
    -Waterfall
    -Night Slash
    -Aerial Ace
    -U-Turn

    Because of Greninja's initial base 95 Attack, the best chance for it to activate Battle Bond would be to faint one of the opponent's pokemon with a super effective attack or U-Turn against an opponent's death fodder. After Battle Bond activates, base 145 Attack with base 132 Speed is nothing to sneeze at.

    Waterfall and Night Slash I believe are Greninja's best physical STAB's, each also has an additional effect with Waterfall's flinch chance and Night Slash's higher critical hit ratio, which could possibly help if hax is on your side. Since this is a Choice Band set, U-Turn would be used for getting extra damage and pivoting into another team member to take an attack that Greninja wouldn't be able to. Aerial Ace might only have 60 base power, but covers some of Greninja's weaknesses (Grass, Bug, Fighting), you could run Acrobatics instead if you decide to have Greninja hold a Z-Crystal, since after the Z-Crystal is used, Acrobatics has a base power of 110.

    Any +Atk nature (especially Brave) would be outclassed by Jolly since Greninja relies on it's speed to K.O opponents. However, if you knew exactly what you could outspeed with a +Atk nature, then you'd still be able to stay alive and be a problem for your opponent.
    Physical is lame. There is a decently noticeable power drop-off (lower Attack stat, physical STABs have less BP, and Aerial Ace is a very weak coverage move) so Greninja is much easier to deal with.

    Also, Z-Crystals are not consumed after use, so no boosted Acrobatcis.


    Quote Originally Posted by generic villager #5 View Post
    Honestly, one of the biggest problems with Ash-Greninja in singles might just be which tier it lands in eventually. I'm pretty sure it's different enough to warrant a (potential) separate tier placement, similar to therian formes for Landorus, Thundurus, and Tornadus, but it really comes down to whether it's consigned to Ubers or gets to enjoy OU. If Ubers, it's gotta hit hard, so almost without a doubt it'll need to run a Choice Scarf or Choice Specs. If it ends up in OU, it won't need to hit quite as hard and the versatility it might get out of a LO and/or a possible mixed set (highly questionable) could be more important.

    As for Z-crystals as the held item: I'm a little iffy about Z-moves since they only get one use and then leave you itemless, but Ash-Greninja might benefit from it, if for no better reason than that it will get the KO to activate Battle Bond in a tight spot.

    No analysis of classic Greninja from me, it's just too obvious.
    To my knowledge they are being tier separately. If BB does end up in Ubers, it will not be able to function because getting that first kill will be exceptionally difficult with all the fatmons (plus Primal Groudon laughs at Greninja). Deo-A exists if you want a fast, frail nuke, and it doesn't need to nab a kill to be a threat and got a new best friend in Tapu Lele.
    Quote Originally Posted by mtndrew24
    spoiler ansem isnt ansem but is actually pretending to be ansem as riku inside ansem pretending to be ansem

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Posts
    12

    Default

    Greninja (Standard)

    Pros:
    + Protean is arguerably one of the best ability, both offensively and defensively. Aside from it will give you STAB in all of your damaging moves, predicting your weakness is not easy as long as your opponent doesn't know your move set and/or move pattern.
    + Good speed and passable offense, both ATk ans SpATK. Bulk is also passable.
    + Access to support moves like Mat Block, Haze, Spike, Toxic Spike and Taunt.
    + Diverse movepool. Have access to moves like Water Shuriken, Hydro Pump, Blizzard, Icy Wind, Dark Pulse, etc., and as well as Rock Slide, Gunk Shot, Waterfall, Night Slash, U-Turn, etc., if you want to run a physical set.

    Cons:
    - Absence of reliable recovery move aside from Rest and Leftover.
    - While the move pool might be diverse, it lacks powerful moves like Stone Edge, Earthquake, Psyshock, Sucker Punch, etc.
    - None of its stat, aside from Speed, is really impressive.

    GRENINJA - Ash-forme

    Pros:
    + Impressive offense
    + Six resistences, one immunity
    + Just like Mega-Rayquaza, you can still use items. So, look out for choice user or life orb Ash-Greninja

    Cons:
    + Have five weakneses that are common.
    + No gain in bulk
    + Absence of Protean fixes your weakness and hinders you from receiving STAB on other non-water/non-dark type moves.
    + Not breedable; the moves from other generation cannot be learned.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    Posts
    66

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Karxrida View Post
    To my knowledge they are being tier separately. If BB does end up in Ubers, it will not be able to function because getting that first kill will be exceptionally difficult with all the fatmons (plus Primal Groudon laughs at Greninja). Deo-A exists if you want a fast, frail nuke, and it doesn't need to nab a kill to be a threat and got a new best friend in Tapu Lele.
    Honestly, I can't fathom how BB could end up in Ubers. Unless I'm terribly misinformed, there are megas with similar BSTs that are in OU, except that BB requires arguably more difficult hoops to jump through than simply item choice. I don't think the high risk/high reward nature of BB puts it higher on the tier list than megas.

  24. #24

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by BlazingRagnarok View Post
    Honestly, I can't fathom how BB could end up in Ubers. Unless I'm terribly misinformed, there are megas with similar BSTs that are in OU, except that BB requires arguably more difficult hoops to jump through than simply item choice. I don't think the high risk/high reward nature of BB puts it higher on the tier list than megas.
    I don't see it happening either, especially seeing that Ash-Greninja is still walled by several pokémon in OU, like Chansey and Tapu Fini, and Lucario and Arcanine can revenge kill it with ExtremeSpeed. Once PokéBank opens up ExtremeSpeed Dragonite and Entei also appear again as threats that can revenge kill it, getting higher priority than Water Shuriken.

  25. #25

    Default

    I fully agree with what everyone's saying, I doubt BB Greninja will see Ubers even with several unavailable threats from Gen VI's OU. I'll wager BB Greninja will be prominent in OU, though, due to the stat boost, good coverage, and of course, a boosted Water Shuriken. It's my understanding that BB grants a 2x increase to Water Shuriken, so after STAB you're looking at a priority move between 90 and 225 effective base power. For scale, that's at minimum as strong as a Technician-boosted Mach Punch or Bullet Punch, and stronger than an unboosted Aerilate Quick Attack in this gen or the last. I figure BB Greninja might even fill part of the void left behind by Gale Wings Talonflame, albeit trading consistent damage and prioritized healing for no recoil and neutrality to Stealth Rocks.
    The risk I took was calculated, but man, am I bad at math.

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •