View Poll Results: What range of power is Ash-Greninja in?

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  • Weaker than any E4 lvl or higher Pokémon

    5 15.63%
  • E4 non-Ace lvl

    9 28.13%
  • E4 Ace lvl

    7 21.88%
  • Champion Ace lvl

    9 28.13%
  • Champion Mega lvl

    2 6.25%
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Thread: How strong is Ash-Greninja?

  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wednesdayz View Post
    I'm not sure how Sawyer ranking worse than Ash in the Kalos League makes Greninja seem stronger, but okay. :/
    Well Tierno's Pokemon weren't weak by any means. Blastoise one-shotted Slurpuff who tied to Goodra and Raichu defeated Aegislash who gave Pikachu serious trouble. And Mega Sceptile took them out without taking any damage, without breaking a sweat.
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  2. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maldread View Post
    Just looking at the poster immediately above this post, I don't think that I'm far from being unjustified in that belief =P.

    But isn't that what you're doing here in arbitrarily deciding some votes are due to "fanboys and trolls"...
    Saying it how it is isn't fanboyism. Your connotation of it is an opposing claim that you detest which isn't similar to fanboyism from a logical standpoint. That said, what I claimed is exactly what occurred in the anime. Trying to argue that Ash-Greninja would lose to an inept Sceptile is pure bias at its finest.

  3. #103
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    Maldread while I see your point that the <E4 and Champion mega voters should be taken into account because people might genuinely think that way, we both know that the 5 people who voted Ash's base Charizard as on par with a Champion mega aces were trolls.

    Besides in normal statistics, those 5 votes would have been counted as outliers anyway since no one believed Ash's Charizard to be "base Champion ace" level or "E4 mega ace" level.

    Regardless, my opinions are not based on what the majority believe. AG's effort against MCX was at the ultimate lowball, not much worse than an E4 mega ace (personally I think he fared even better than Malva) so whoever voted weaker than E4 or E4 non-ace are just kidding themselves.

    That isn't even taking into account that MCX was exhausted by 10 battles prior, nor Alain's improvements during that time.

    Honestly, the fact that even after beating Malva, Alain flying around Kalos clearing gyms just to battle Ash-Greninja is a testament to how strong it is (Alain wanted to become the strongest out of the mega-evolutions, and beating an E4 mega wasn't even enough for him).
    Last edited by snorlax512; 10th January 2017 at 11:34 AM.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Genaller View Post
    (all) options as equally feasible then go for it (though I already know you also don't consider such polls indicative of the actual truth)
    That's why I would do just a simple average than try to determine who's trolling, being a fanboy, or has an alt. Whether it is "correct" or not is always up for debate. Both Pokemon average out to the "E4 ace lvl", and a lot of people think Charizard or Pikachu are his best, though AG generally is regarded right up there.

    I would sincerely like to here what you mean by "fluidity".
    For example: Just because one E4 MEs a Pokemon, doesn't always guarantee a different non-ME E4 Pokemon would lose to it.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maldread View Post
    That's why I would do just a simple average than try to determine who's trolling, being a fanboy, or has an alt. Whether it is "correct" or not is always up for debate. Both Pokemon average out to the "E4 ace lvl", and a lot of people think Charizard or Pikachu are his best, though AG generally is regarded right up there.



    For example: Just because one E4 MEs a Pokemon, doesn't always guarantee a different non-ME E4 Pokemon would lose to it.
    To be fair even the way I'm analyzing it A-G is on average only very slightly better than E4 Ace lvl while Charizard is on average between E4 non-Ace and Ace lvl and slightly closer to E4 Ace lvl. Personally I would rate them Champion Ace lvl and E4 Ace lvl so the aggregate relative disparity between them is smaller than I anticipated which goes more in line with what you're saying. From what I've seen, I'm glad I created those filter options (and yup I decided on these filters before making the thread so even if the data would have given A-G a more favorable standing, I would have still excluded the first and last option (because I have integrity)). Besides only 5 voters were excluded from each poll by my methadology so most of PAD indirectly did infact agree with me regarding my spectrum by their voting choices. Also the idea that the first and last option can't be valid is "preconceived" isn't correct since I've given my justification for why those benchmarks don't work for either Pokémon. Besides it's a lot easier to prove that something is within a spectrum than to prove its exact strength rating (isn't that why you never did sub-tiers) so I'm confident in my justification. Feel free to interpret the results however you like.

    I'm going to need more elaboration on "fluidity"
    Peakachu Progression: vs Surge (Kanto) -> vs Drake (OI) -> vs Clair (Johto) -> vs Tyson (Hoenn) -> vs Brandon (BF) -> vs Tobias (Sinnoh) -> vs Alain (Kalos)

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  6. #106
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    Ash-Greninja might be as strong as a Champion's main Pokemon, but we'll never know for sure.

  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alloutℯ View Post
    Ash-Greninja might be as strong as a Champion's main Pokemon, but we'll never know for sure.
    Too bad we never saw him versus Mega Gardevoir conclude.

  8. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wednesdayz View Post
    Too bad we never saw him versus Mega Gardevoir conclude.
    But it was surely dominating the battle and had Mega Gardevoir in serious trouble.
    Last edited by 345ash-greninja; 11th January 2017 at 4:06 AM.
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  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by 345ash-greninja View Post
    But if was surely dominating the battle and had Mega Gardevoir in serious trouble.
    That's irrelevant since we still didn't see a result.

  10. #110
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wednesdayz View Post
    That's irrelevant since we still didn't see a result.
    It isn't irrelevant, the fact that it managed to push a Champion's Mega ace so hard proves that it's at least E4 Mega level.
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  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wednesdayz View Post
    That's irrelevant since we still didn't see a result.
    It's not irrelevant which is why there is some reverence for Torkoal's performance against Registeel even if it didn't win.

  12. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wednesdayz View Post
    That's irrelevant since we still didn't see a result.
    Not only that, but Diantha wasn't even going all-out (not trying to win, battle suboptimally, plus one move couldn't be used) and Gardevoir was immediately up after the hit.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maldread View Post
    Not only that, but Diantha wasn't even going all-out (not trying to win, battle suboptimally, plus one move couldn't be used) and Gardevoir was immediately up after the hit.
    There's honestly a better reason for her suboptimal performance than being suppressed which allowed her to get her ace kicked.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maldread View Post
    Not only that, but Diantha wasn't even going all-out (not trying to win, battle suboptimally, plus one move couldn't be used) and Gardevoir was immediately up after the hit.
    For the last point, I could also say that the battle did wear Gardevoir out even if it was only due to her limitations (I know you don't really think that a Champion's Ace got tired from only momentarily going full power to blast off TRio -.-). At the very least it is something never really seen in the main show before (the mere fact that A-G made us question the absolute omnipotence of a Champion's Ace is an achievement in and of itself). Also my primary claim is that it could only battle at the same lvl as (FP) base Gardevoir while you believe it could do well against (FP) base Gardevoir but ultimately comes up short which I guess is also fair.

    Also could you give a more in-depth explanation on your idea of "fluidity".
    Last edited by Genaller; 11th January 2017 at 5:29 PM.
    Peakachu Progression: vs Surge (Kanto) -> vs Drake (OI) -> vs Clair (Johto) -> vs Tyson (Hoenn) -> vs Brandon (BF) -> vs Tobias (Sinnoh) -> vs Alain (Kalos)

    A-G

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  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Genaller View Post
    Also could you give a more in-depth explanation on your idea of "fluidity".
    In brief, even among E4/strong FB Pokemon (Mega or not) there is some disparity, thus rendering benchmarks as something that is not firmly fixed (still good to use it for simplicity).

  16. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maldread View Post
    In brief, even among E4/strong FB Pokemon (Mega or not) there is some disparity, thus rendering benchmarks as something that is not firmly fixed (still good to use it for simplicity).
    Well I agree that disparity exits though I do think it decreases with an increase in rank (e.g. difference between min(FB Ace) and max(FB Ace) > difference min(E4 Ace) and max(E4 Ace)). Also by E4 lvl or higher I don't think the disparity could ever be great enough to compensate ME (min(E4 Mega Ace) > max(E4 Ace)). Could you PM me what your in-depth thought process is regarding "fluidity" so I can atleast understand where your coming from (whenever you have free time since I'm guessing your also pretty busy).
    Peakachu Progression: vs Surge (Kanto) -> vs Drake (OI) -> vs Clair (Johto) -> vs Tyson (Hoenn) -> vs Brandon (BF) -> vs Tobias (Sinnoh) -> vs Alain (Kalos)

    A-G

    Lucha

  17. #117
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    Elite 4 Non Ace Level.

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