View Poll Results: What range of power is Ash-Greninja in?

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  • Weaker than any E4 lvl or higher Pokémon

    5 15.63%
  • E4 non-Ace lvl

    9 28.13%
  • E4 Ace lvl

    7 21.88%
  • Champion Ace lvl

    9 28.13%
  • Champion Mega lvl

    2 6.25%
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Thread: How strong is Ash-Greninja?

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by snorlax512 View Post
    IMO base form GPICSS goes Charizard = Peakachu > Sceptile > Greninja > Infernape > Snorlax

    Unfortunately base Greninja was never used to it's full potential, but I estimate his strength based on how he fared against Alain's Charizard during their multiple battles. Alain's Charizard swept the Kalos league up to the finals and Greninja wasn't portrayed as being miles behind so I don't think he is that weak.
    I'm not too sure if Alain's base Charizard swept the League. Alain swept through Trevor's team with MC-X, as we saw. Against Remo, he wasn't using MC-X until he faced Mega Garchomp, but remembering the Trevor battle, I won't say he swept through the League with base Charizard.
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  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by 345ash-greninja View Post
    I'm not too sure if Alain's base Charizard swept the League. Alain swept through Trevor's team with MC-X, as we saw. Against Remo, he wasn't using MC-X until he faced Mega Garchomp, but remembering the Trevor battle, I won't say he swept through the League with base Charizard.
    Against Remo (who by definition was the strongest trainer Alain faced up to that point), Alain defeated 5 of his pokemon in base form without even getting tired, so logically he should be able to sweep all the previous opponents (who are weaker than Remo) in base form as well.

    It seems like Alain mega-evolves his Charizard when his opponent has a mega out of courtesy and respect (because he could have swept trevor in base form as well)
    Last edited by snorlax512; 9th January 2017 at 12:41 PM.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by snorlax512 View Post
    Against Remo (who by definition was the strongest trainer Alain faced up to that point), Alain defeated 5 of his pokemon in base form without even getting tired, so logically he should be able to sweep all the previous opponents (who are weaker than Remo) in base form as well.

    It seems like Alain mega-evolves his Charizard when his opponent has a mega out of courtesy and respect (because he could have swept trevor in base form as well)
    Well then maybe he Mega Evolves his Charizard only while battling Megas. MC-Y came as the first opponent in the battle vs Trevor and so Alain resorted to Mega Evolution. So, his remaining opponents could have also had Megas. So I that case, Alain might have used MC-X as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 345ash-greninja View Post
    Well then maybe he Mega Evolves his Charizard only while battling Megas. MC-Y came as the first opponent in the battle vs Trevor and so Alain resorted to Mega Evolution. So, his remaining opponents could have also had Megas. So I that case, Alain might have used MC-X as well.
    The point is Alain could have swept the entire league (until the finals) with his base Charizard, but he used mega-evolution out of respect for his opponents.

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    Quote Originally Posted by snorlax512 View Post
    IMO base form GPICSS goes Charizard = Peakachu > Sceptile > Greninja > Infernape > Snorlax

    Unfortunately base Greninja was never used to it's full potential, but I estimate his strength based on how he fared against Alain's Charizard (even MCX at a point) during their multiple battles. Alain's Charizard swept the Kalos league up to the finals and Greninja wasn't portrayed as being miles behind so I don't think he is that weak.
    Idk I still consider base form Greninja the weakest because it lacks feats excluding Alain's Bisharp(if I forget something I'm sorry).I also put it below Infernape because he sweeped half of Paul's team(which had a freaking Drapion which also sweeped half of Ash's team) and can activate his blaze without depending on his trainer something that doesn't apply to Greninja and Snorlax because it has the greatest durability and brings down at least on pokemon as well(I don't include the 6 moves ).

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    Quote Originally Posted by snorlax512 View Post
    The point is Alain could have swept the entire league (until the finals) with his base Charizard, but he used mega-evolution out of respect for his opponents.
    Yes I agree, he could've swept with his base Charizard if he wanted. But Remo's Mega Garchomp I think was above Alain's base Charizard as it forced Alain to use MC-X by hitting base Charizard hard with Draco Meteor.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darthlord7 View Post
    Idk I still consider base form Greninja the weakest because it lacks feats excluding Alain's Bisharp(if I forget something I'm sorry).I also put it below Infernape because he sweeped half of Paul's team(which had a freaking Drapion which also sweeped half of Ash's team) and can activate his blaze without depending on his trainer something that doesn't apply to Greninja and Snorlax because it has the greatest durability and brings down at least on pokemon as well(I don't include the 6 moves ).
    Base Greninja one-shotted a Scizor, one-shotted Sawyer's Clawitzer(who was quite strong) and one-shotted Alain's Bisharp(who was quite damaged before). It also survived super effective Thunder Punches from MC-X and landed hits on it, which is quite a feat in my opinion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 345ash-greninja View Post
    Base Greninja one-shotted a Scizor, one-shotted Sawyer's Clawitzer(who was quite strong) and one-shotted Alain's Bisharp(who was quite damaged before). It also survived super effective Thunder Punches from MC-X and landed hits on it, which is quite a feat in my opinion.
    You are right I forgot Scizor and Clawitzer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Darthlord7 View Post
    Champion mega Ace > base Champion Ace >=E4 mega ace>=MC-X>E4 ace = Ash-Greninja ~ Peakachu ~ Charizard
    Even though I'd argue these labels are fluid in terms of 'power levels', you are correct in terms of general ballpark of where Ash's top dogs are located.

    The bad thing in the anime is that once one of the battlers use a mega the other one evolves it as well.
    That's because Mega Evolution is hype-worthy, and one of the key aspects of Gen VI, and thus has to be promoted. I wouldn't be surprised if a ton of battles in S&M feature Z Moves, even when they might be overkill.

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    OK so according to PAD polls, AG is between E4 ace to Champion ace level, while Charizard is between E4 non-ace to E4 ace level, but somehow Ash's strongest Pokemon is Charizard followed by Pikachu -_-

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    Quote Originally Posted by snorlax512 View Post
    OK so according to PAD polls, AG is between E4 ace to Champion ace level, while Charizard is between E4 non-ace to E4 ace level, but somehow Ash's strongest Pokemon is Charizard followed by Pikachu -_-
    Yes, that's quite hilarious. These two gifs suggest that Ash-Greninja is at least E4 Mega Ace level though:
    http://makeagif.com/i/cEwsdj
    http://makeagif.com/t_YL8Q
    Last edited by 345ash-greninja; 9th January 2017 at 3:05 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by snorlax512 View Post
    OK so according to PAD polls, AG is between E4 ace to Champion ace level, while Charizard is between E4 non-ace to E4 ace level, but somehow Ash's strongest Pokemon is Charizard followed by Pikachu -_-
    That's because no-one voted Champion Mega on the Greninja poll
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    Quote Originally Posted by snorlax512 View Post
    OK so according to PAD polls, AG is between E4 ace to Champion ace level, while Charizard is between E4 non-ace to E4 ace level, but somehow Ash's strongest Pokemon is Charizard followed by Pikachu -_-
    Not really - both average out to "E4 Ace lvl". More people voted in the overall thread too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maldread View Post
    Not really - both average out to "E4 Ace lvl". More people voted in the overall thread too.
    A-G averages out to between E4 ace and Champion ace, since Champion ace was the majority vote. No one voted Charizard as Champion ace level so he averages out to between E4 non-ace and E4 ace (discluding the troll Champion mega voters).

    It could be because more people voted in the overall thread but both the A-G and Charizard polls had a decent sample size so...

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    Weaker than E4 level strength. A noob's Sceptile gave it a run for his money

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoruagible View Post
    Weaker than E4 level strength. A noob's Sceptile gave it a run for his money
    Lol, noob's Sceptile. Said noob made to the semifinals of the Kalos League and his Sceptile KO'd Tierno's Pokemon like nothing.

    That Mega Sceptile was taken down like this:
    http://makeagif.com/FmG1Js
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    Well I guess I'll share the results of my little survey. Firstly I used the first option ("Weaker than any E4 lvl or higher Pokémon") and the last option ("Champion Mega lvl") to screen out trolls and fanboys (a.k.a the outliers). The reason why I made individual polls is because it's far more difficult to detect fanboys and trolls in grouped polls (e.g. "Strongest Member of GPICSS?"). Both A-G and Charizard have proven that they're atleast on the lower end of the E4 spectrum but neither are amongst the absolute strongest trainer Pokémon around (Champion Megas). This survey is also predicated on the assumption that no 2 E4 Ace Pokémon (or Champion Ace Pokémon) have a disparity that's so great that it can't be overcompensated for by Mega Evolution. For my rating; I define "E4 non-Ace lvl" = 1, "E4 Ace lvl" = 2 and "Champion Ace lvl" = 3. For A-G out of a sample size of 21 counted votes; Median = 2, Mean = 2.14, Mod = 3 and Standard Deviation = 0.84. For Charizard out of a sample size of 15 counted votes; Median = 2, Mean = 1.6, Mod = 2 and Standard Deviation = 0.49.

    What all of this means in English; A majority believe that both A-G and Charizard are at most "E4 Ace lvl", on average A-G is considered to be somewhere between "E4 Ace lvl" and "Champion Ace lvl" with him being far closer to the former while Charizard is considered to be somewhere between "E4 non-Ace lvl" and "E4 Ace lvl" with him being slightly closer to the latter, the option with the highest number of votes for A-G is "Champion Ace lvl" and for Charizard is "E4 Ace lvl", and there is a greater variation of opinion regarding A-G's strength in comparison to Charizard's strength. In short, the current consensus amongst the reasonable body of opinion of PAD is that A-G > Charizard.

    Feel free to make any other interpretations based on the current statistics provided above and I'll update my results in case both polls evolve to the point where several of the current interpretations need to be altered.

    NOTE: These results are based on the data that A-G got 6-6-9 (in ascending order) votes while Charizard got 6-9-0 votes. Even if this data slightly changes, most of the above interpretations still hold. Once again, if the data evolves to the point where many of my above interpretations need altercation, then I'll make another post concerning the updated results.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Genaller View Post
    Firstly I used the first option ("Weaker than any E4 lvl or higher Pokémon") and the last option ("Champion Mega lvl") to screen out trolls and fanboys (a.k.a the outliers).
    -.- Putting aside my thoughts regarding doing statistical analyses in low sample sizes and unscientific polls, but how can you screen people out like that automatically? Especially if the rationale is based on "fanboyism and trolls", then there are known XY fanboys who voted in "Champion Ace lvl" and people who aren't taking it seriously whatsoever voting any option. It's rather convenient that taking out those "outliers" removes the 4 that put AG as "below E4 lvl" and the 5 that put Charizard "above Champion Mega." Especially when you're saying the data is reflective of the "reasonable body of opinion of PAD." It's more of just doing a simple average and seeing that AG and Charizard end up being around "E4 Ace Lvl".
    Last edited by Maldread; 9th January 2017 at 9:18 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoruagible View Post
    Weaker than E4 level strength. A noob's Sceptile gave it a run for his money
    Yet it was utterly humiliated and had its tongue sticking out after being negged to oblivion. You're hilarious dawg.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maldread View Post
    -.- Putting aside my thoughts regarding doing statistical analyses in low sample sizes and unscientific polls, but how can you screen people out like that automatically? Especially if the rationale is based on "fanboyism and trolls", then there are known XY fanboys who voted in "Champion Ace lvl" and people who aren't taking it seriously whatsoever voting any option. It's rather convenient that taking out those "outliers" removes the 4 that put AG as "below E4 lvl" and the 5 that put Charizard "above Champion Mega." Especially when you're saying the data is reflective of the "reasonable body of opinion of PAD." It's more of just doing a simple average and seeing that AG and Charaizard end up being around "E4 Ace Lvl".
    This is a major issue I have with you. While it's fine that you disagree with my opinion regarding A-G's strength, you don't even accept that my opinion could be in the conceivable realm of non-trivial possibility which is outright ludicrous and all you do regarding people who disagree with your viewpoint is label them as "fanboys" or "circlejerkers". For both Charizard and A-G, the conceivable realm of non-trivial possibility is somewhere in the top tier spectrum but not at the absolute pinnacle of the spectrum (Champion Mega). Now already you and I can't progress further since you believe it's plausible for 1 Champion's (or E4's) Ace to be so much better than another's that it overcompensates for ME which I completely disagree with as the function of Champions (and E4s) are to serve as benchmarks/measuring sticks of power and hence they're interchangeable for the most part. For Charizard, it beat a legendary Pokémon commanded by a Frontier Brain (who are defined as trainers much better than GYM leaders with a few of them potentially being E4 lvl or close to it). Of course rating Charizard's strength from there highly depends on your value of the term legendary which leads to subjectivity though based on portrayal (again a subjective term) in conjunction with it being commanded by an FB, most would agree that such a feat lands Charizard somewhere in the E4 range. After this Charizard continued to train throughout Ash's Sinnoh and Unova league endeavors and has improved by some unquantifiable amount though it isn't the absolute strongest (Champion Aces are by definition the absolute strongest base form trainer Pokémon so it's absurd to even consider that a Pokémon that doesn't have acces to ME or an equivalent mechanic could be outright above them) ergo I don't consider Champion Mega lvl within the conceivable range of non-trivial possibility for Charizard. Like wise for A-G since it lost to MC X which within the conveivable range of non-trivial possibility can be at most be Champion Mega lvl (Kind of derivative from my previous assumption regarding Champion Aces) making A-G strictly below Champion Mega lvl. On the flip side, A-G was able to match MC X (a Pokémon that's atleast in the league of E4 (Mega) Aces if not outright above them) from a power standpoint (which the writers conveyed with the equal sizes of the fiery and watery clouds) which is even further supported by Clemont stating that endurance was the primary differentiating factor and not power or speed. It doesn't matter how you want to interpret that match, what A-G did against Gardevoir/MG is absolutely groundbreaking for this show. Just look at the cases concerning E4s and Champions prior,

    - Ash vs Lorelei
    - Ash vs Drake (Hoenn)
    - Ash vs Agatha
    - Paul vs Cynthia
    - Ash vs Bertha
    - Ash vs Flint
    - Trip vs Alder

    In all of these cases it's made abundantly clear that the E4s and Champions operate on an entirely different plane from the other trainers. Even in cases like Ash vs Bertha where Bertha was likely restraining her capabilities as a trainer since she wanted to give Ash observation training rather than outright win and still Torterra didn't even begin to look remotely competitive despite getting a solid hit with Leaf Storm. You impartially take all of this information in and what A-G was able to do in XYZ 25 was nothing short of astonishing to the point where people have to say stuff like Diantha was a weak Champion or she was never taking the match seriously to begin with because this anime has conditioned its audience so thoroughly regarding the utter omnipotence of a Champion with respect to other trainers. Was MG Suppressed? Yes. Could Diantha have potentially beaten A-G with base Gardevoir had she battled with the intent to win by for example being more aggressive and trying to create as many opportunities as possible to launch direct hit MBs? Sure. Was Diantha never taking the match seriously? No! Switching from eye communication to actually yelling out "dodge" and actually utilizing ME regardless of intent makes it clear that Diantha wasn't taking A-G lightly. Also just because she was battling more defensively than she usually would doesn't mean that she wasn't trying to battle with said battle style to the best of her ability. I'm sorry, but I can't in good conscience consider an opinion where A-G isn't even in the top tier spectrum to be within the conceivable range of non-trivial possibility (at least by a reasonable person).

    That's the long version of my answer to why I don't consider the first and last options to be plausible options for A-G's and Charizard's strength ratings and hence I used them as "dummy" options to weed out definitively unreliable inputs. Frankly all the outliers tell me is that Charizard is overrated strength wise and A-G is actually underrated strength wise despite him being perceived as overrated (which again is a factor that has a lot more to it than just strength rating) by most of this forum. Sure you can list out the shortcomings of this poll (which would apply to most polls in general) though in this case I was just trying to discern what the popular opinion was amongst people that have view points within some conceivable realm of reasonability (I can't really do anything about people who aren't giving their sincere opinions).

    "Unscientific" well yes though it's impossible to do a scientific "Poll" as traditionally done on this forum and I doubt any of us have the time to do a servey that adheres to scientific rigor. Eh the whole statistics approach still seems like a better idea than all the constant fruitless hardly ever constructive debating that this forum has been the medium for regarding power-scaling.

    It also seems impossible to construct a rigorous strength rating system for the Pokémon Anime given that it's a narrative and therefore open to massive realms of uncertainty and subjectivity. It's clear that certain assumptions need to be made to even fathom constructing such a system though the question then becomes what is the smallest set of assumptions (axioms) from which a respectable system can be developed. It's likely that the reason we have disagreements on this stuff is because both our respective sets contain assumptions that the other finds non-intuitive, questionable or outright fallacious though I'm also certain that our respective sets overlap signifcantly given that we agree on more than we disagree and the viewpoint disparity concerning a lot of what we disagree on is within a conceivable margin of error (even if at times you or I refuse to admit it).

    Eh at the end of the day, the reality is that both of us are probably just overanalyzing a Japenease TV Show aimed primarily at viewers aged 8-12. Maybe we need to think about how our 10-year old selves would/did perceive the "relative" (even though we probably wouldn't have understood the importance of such a concept at that age) strength of Pokémon in order to attain a viewpoint that's more accurate with respect to what the writers were intending. Just a thought XD.
    Last edited by Genaller; 10th January 2017 at 3:17 AM.
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    Thrashing the mighty yeti:
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zoruagible View Post
    Weaker than E4 level strength. A noob's Sceptile gave it a run for his money
    Poor Greninja. He'll never live down that embarrassment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wednesdayz View Post
    Poor Greninja. He'll never live down that embarrassment.
    Said noob's Sceptile was an absolute beast at the League which KO'd two Pokemon of the quarter finalist of the League like nothing. And the noob also made to the semifinals of the League. Just saying
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    Quote Originally Posted by Genaller View Post
    all you do regarding people who disagree with your viewpoint is label them as "fanboys" or "circlejerkers".
    Just looking at the poster immediately above this post, I don't think that I'm far from being unjustified in that belief =P.

    But isn't that what you're doing here in arbitrarily deciding some votes are due to "fanboys and trolls"...

    benchmarks/measuring sticks of power and hence they're interchangeable for the most part.
    It's not that I don't believe in benchmarks or measuring sticks, but I just believe in fluidity.

    though it isn't the absolute strongest (Champion Aces are by definition the absolute strongest base form trainer Pokémon so it's absurd to even consider that a Pokémon that doesn't have acces to ME or an equivalent mechanic could be outright above them) ergo I don't consider Champion Mega lvl within the conceivable range of non-trivial possibility for Charizard.
    You wanted to create two threads to gauage PAD's views regarding the power levels of these Pokemon. You included all benchmarks. Why make that top option if you're going to discredit those votes? Otherwise, they probably would have just gone to the "E4 Mega Ace = Champion Ace Lvl" {I'm assuming that's why you dropped one of those in the A-G poll}.

    makes it clear that Diantha wasn't taking A-G lightly...doesn't mean that she wasn't trying to battle with said battle style to the best of her ability. I'm sorry, but I can't in good conscience consider an opinion where A-G isn't even in the top tier spectrum to be within the conceivable range of non-trivial possibility (at least by a reasonable person).
    The problem is how much one rates A-G as a result of that interpretation. To some, Diantha "not taking lightly" while "trying in a [suboptimal] battle style" makes A-G no better than an E4 Pokemon (as in an E4 Pokemon would have been able to apply the same pressure and also land a hit). That's not for YOU to decide. Otherwise, again, why make that option in the first place?

    I used them as "dummy" options to weed out definitively unreliable inputs...trying to discern what the popular opinion was amongst people that have view points within some conceivable realm of reasonability (I can't really do anything about people who aren't giving their sincere opinions).

    So you created a poll with "dummy" options based off your own preconceived ideas about the power levels of both Pokemon. I'm not saying some of your points are unreasonable, but you can't really do that and then definitively declare that the reasonable part of PAD thinks AG > Charizard either.
    Last edited by Maldread; 10th January 2017 at 4:23 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maldread View Post
    Just looking at the poster immediately above this post, I don't think that I'm far from being unjustified in that belief =P.

    But isn't that what you're doing here in arbitrarily deciding some votes are due to "fanboys and trolls"...



    It's not that I don't believe in benchmarks or measuring sticks, but I just believe in fluidity.



    You wanted to create two threads to gauage PAD's views regarding the power levels of these Pokemon. You included all benchmarks. Why make that top option if you're going to discredit those votes? Otherwise, they probably would have just gone to the "E4 Mega Ace = Champion Ace Lvl" {I'm assuming that's why you dropped one of those in the A-G poll}.



    The problem is how much one rates A-G as a result of that interpretation. To some, Diantha "not taking lightly" and "trying in a [suboptimal] battle style" makes A-G no better than an E4 Pokemon (as in an E4 Pokemon would have been able to apply the same pressure and also land a hit). That's not for YOU to decide. Otherwise, again, why make that option in the first place?




    So you created a poll with "dummy" options based off your own preconceived ideas about the power levels of both Pokemon. I'm not saying some of your points are unreasonable, but you can't really do that and then definitively declare that the reasonable part of PAD thinks AG > Charizard either.
    Right but not everyone with an XY favorable opinion is like that so it isn't fair for YOU to stereotype the way you've been doing lately. We can both agree that such polls aren't really reliable indicators. Well yup it would be my pre-conceived (derived) notions that A-G and Charizard should fall within a certain spectrum and to measure the aggregate opinion of people who also believed they fell somewhere within that spectrum I created a lower and upper outlier to filter out the people whose views were either clear trolling or had a very different definition of plausibility than my own. Notice how I never asked you or anyone else to agree with my analysis. I just did all of this for my own personal curiosity. If you would like to consider all options as equally feasible then go for it (though I already know you also don't consider such polls indicative of the actual truth). I would sincerely like to here what you mean by "fluidity". Well all I'm saying from the Diantha thing is that it isn't outright BELOW E4 lvl. Beyond the E4 barrier, I can fully accept that there is a pretty sizeable spectrum along which A-G could be placed anywhere within reasonability. I side more with the upper end of the spectrum while you side with the lower end of it and that's perfectly fine for me. To sum up, I'm only declaring that the "reasonable" (entirely from my perspective based on my notions of conceivable range of non-trivial possibility) part of PAD believes that A-G > Charizard. Neither you nor any other member of PAD has any obligation to accept what I'm stating so no worries .

    EDIT: Barring your insincere vote in the Charizard thread (I'm guessing you actually rate it E4 non-Ace lvl or E4 Ace lvl), there are exactly 5 outlier votes for each thread that have a very odd symmetry don't you think (1 vote for A-G being Champion Mega lvl and Charizard being below E4 lvl while 4 votes for the exact opposite for both Pokémon). Interesting coincidence if you ask me (I'm convinced I was right in making outlier options). Also it's clear to me that the majority of the PAD does atleast agree with my spectrum.
    Last edited by Genaller; 10th January 2017 at 5:30 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by 345ash-greninja View Post
    Said noob's Sceptile was an absolute beast at the League which KO'd two Pokemon of the quarter finalist of the League like nothing. And the noob also made to the semifinals of the League. Just saying
    I'm not sure how Sawyer ranking worse than Ash in the Kalos League makes Greninja seem stronger, but okay. :/

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