And that's completely messed up and a completely different topic.
Originally Posted by bobjr
Never said it would be worse. Just that most hate speech laws are based around words and without proof and a proper court system how do you disprove an accusation of saying something?
So how would a hate crime be worse off in a legal court.
Define "real proof"? There should be proof before a crime even gets to a judge. Otherwise, what's to stop people from filing charges simply to force a person to pay court costs or to get them arrested over and over again?
Without any real proof a judge would throw it out in terms of hate speech.
And how many people used their free speech to point out how that person was wrong? And there are kooks on all sides. Is it still a hate crime if an extreme feminist wants to go to artificial insemination and calls for the execution of all men?
But going "Hey everyone deserves free speech" got literal Nazi's in huge papers like the New York Times talking about how Genocide is a-okay as long as it's certain groups of people
I don't agree that a human right includes the right not to hear offensive ideas or that a person should always feel safe. The first is an opinion that can very from group to group and the second can mean anything from not being scared by the big, scary (insert ethnic group/gender) or demanding that the government build me a super strong house to protect me from tornadoes. "Human Rights" is a variable list that a lot of people define and rank differently.
so it makes me wonder how much of this is about free speech and how much is literal human rights
Interesting phrasing. Everyone already has a voice and everyone can use their voice in how they choose. You are talking about removing their voice if what they say doesn't toe the approved line. I am sure you can think of a few countries where people disappear for not toeing the approved party line.
and lives being threatened, because giving people like that a voice
leads to the "When they go low, we go high" mentality that gets them to do horrible things while we go "Oh well they have a right to this, and while I'm not personally affected I'm sure the people in the line of fire can handle it."
Also, can you point to a few recent examples of people voicing their opinion and others doing horrible things as a result while others stand by and tut. Say last few years. And since the topic is about the US not having hate speech laws, how about events in the US? Feel free to link to other countries if you can't find US based events.
So you want to bring back duels?
There should always be laws against assaulting people, but there should also be exceptions when that person is so vile in their opinions that letting them say it without consequence would only make things worse.
You don't have to hear him out. You can choose to walk away, change the channel, tune him out, etc. Free speech does not mean an enforced audience. What is worse? The ability to engage in an open discussion with other people who have the chance to refute their opinions and possibly help someone come to a better choice or the fear that saying the wrong thing to the wrong person can lead to being arrested without proof?
Because what's worse, a Nazi who's scared to leave his house and whines about people hating him for being a Nazi, or someone who's allowed to preach about how people shouldn't be allowed to exist, and any time something bad happens to him we have to hear "Well he's entitled to his opinion, so lets hear him out"
Plus how do you decide what qualifies as hate speech and when? White vs black, black vs white, gay vs straight? If it's based on minority/majority status, does that change if you live in an area where you aren't a majority person despite the rest of the country being overall a majority of your group?
Originally Posted by snorlax512
And would hate speech cover written words? Does that mean a mass censorship? Burning books?
Nope. Education people to think on their own and learn is important.
Originally Posted by lemoncatpower
Short of never letting your kids outside or have human contact, you will never prevent your kids from hearing about how their parents are wrong. People have opinions on everything. Its better to teach your kids to understand how people can be wrong in their opinions.
I don't want my children growing up hearing people spout hate because their bible told them so. I am gay, I'll be with another man, and my child won't need to hear about how their parents are wrong.
That's not exclusive to religious people. Look at exercise and diet people.
I think it's so wrong to tell someone else what to do with their life if they're not hurting someone, and that's a huge point that religion thumpers usually cannot get a grasp on.
No one likes being told they are wrong and everyone has an opinion. Can't stop people from sharing them.
Like I don't think it's possible in their brains to get a grasp that no one wants to hear them spout hate, no one wants to feel hated, no one wants to be converted, and religion can be wrong sometimes. Christians don't like being told their religion is wrong, so they should stop telling others how they feel about lifestyles they dont live and have NO business even commenting on.
The holocaust was a bit more complicated that just words. Different topic though.
Originally Posted by GhostAnime
Ideas work both ways. You literally can't ban or restrict ideas. People will share them anyway they can. It is better to keep the free exchange of ideas open and shareable so that you can combat the bad ideas with the good ones. "Genetic superiority? Bah. Here's where those people are wrong. Studies have shown....."
people seem to think that ideas don't harm people but ideas lead to action. there's always an idea before an action. words have power. language is essentially the way a culture thinks and communicates what to value and not value.
i'm not directly advocating for hate speech laws but I do want these 'first amendment' lovers to understand that simply looking at history, words clearly haven't just been ****ing words.
they socialize us. that includes slurs. ask any linguist about how language is essentially one of the most important aspects of controlling culture.
If you ban certain words or ideas from public discourse, you only serve to keep people who honestly want to learn in the dark. "You see Billy? They arrested John for simply saying something they didn't like. If he was wrong, why didn't they simply tell him so? Look at that law! If I say ******* I go to jail. If he says it or a similar word directed at me, he doesn't. How is that fair?"
Last edited by LDSman; Today at 6:32 PM.
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