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Thread: Controversial Opinions - READ GUIDELINES IN FIRST POST *Possible Spoilers for SM*

  1. #5076
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    Quote Originally Posted by DatsRight View Post
    To me, you can make laid back episodic stories as fun as tense dynamic ones. I like how character driven SM is as a result as well, which felt lacking in XY and the previous series to a lesser degree.

    Team Plasma and the league arcs tend to get scorn, as does Ash reseting for the sake of a more whimsical personality, TR going the opposite way (though that change is more divisive), and the pacing being mucked up, with too much spare time with no arcs by the last season.
    Character development(solid) and character interactions( strong) are the only thing ,so far, that are better in SM than in any previous series. But just because those two things are better doesn't mean SM's 40 episodes are better than 40 episodes of other series( except Johto).SM's weak at battling, pace,lack of major events, travelling( those are on top of my head). I'd rather choose battling over CD and CI anyday. It'd be nice if it's balanced, but if we have to choose between one and one only: battles>>CD and CI.

    TP is disaster, how? You obviously didn't watch AG's teams. Also TR's arc in OS were also worse than TP.
    Unova league; I'd agree, but there is a league that's even worse: Kanto.
    Ash's competence: I agree
    TR going opposite way? If you mean by: becoming more evil:HAHHAHAHAH That's like one of the best things in BW, idk what are you talking about?
    Pacing in BW>>>>Pacing in SM.
    DI arc is bad, watch SM getting same arc as DI.
    Last edited by CMButch; 20th September 2017 at 3:44 PM.

  2. #5077
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    Quote Originally Posted by Genaller View Post
    To be fair the Kanto team did need redemption after the disaster that was the Indigo League (especially Charizard). Now that I think about it the 2 Johto Pokémon that were unfairly treated in the JL were Noctowl and Cyndaquil, and both of them sort of got redemption in the SL (though they did skip most of Quilava's battle for TRio stuff which was really stupid). Phanpy was also kind of underused (at least he got a win vs Macy) but he got redemption in BF (though they jobbed him in the SL).
    Well charizard vs blastoise was inevitable and a callback to first pokemon game in which if player chooses charmander then the rival will choose squirrtle, but instead of having charizard vs blaziken match they could have made it typhlosion vs blaziken match with typhlosion fainting just like charizard did. It makes sense for a current monster to lose to a unknown pokemon which will eventually foreshadow his next journey to that region. I liked the fact that they used a hoenn pokemon to knock out ash. Johto league is my second favorite league after sinnoh league and if you take out the JL te johto saga will be mostly garbage except for some good gym battles and funny fillers.
    Favourite Characters- Ash, Serena, Lillie, Dawn, Gladion, Cilan, Brock, Cynthia, Kiawe, Lana, Lance, Alain, Steven Stone

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    Watching pokemon for 17 years, grown up while watching this show. Also liked the different characters form different sagas. I hate genwunners.

  3. #5078
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    Quote Originally Posted by CMButch View Post
    Character development(solid) and character interactions( strong) are the only thing ,so far, that are better in SM than in any previous series. But just because those two things are better doesn't mean SM's 40 episodes are better than 40 episodes of other series( except Johto).SM's weak at battling, pace,lack of major events, travelling( those are on top of my head). I'd rather choose battling over CD and CI anyday. It'd be nice if it's balanced, but if we have to choose between one and one only: battles>>CD and CI.
    Well truthfully I prefer a good character being behind whatever action is going on. I get why people love XY's gym battles, because intuition was going on there, but too much of XY otherwise revolved around the plot moving the characters around rather than letting them shine based on their own attributes, making it harder to be invested in them. SM may have less climatic roles for the cast, but it feels a lot more like their characters are control of it.

    Serena's showcases were far more fully fledged an agenda than Sophociles one comical Charjabug race for example, but while Serena basically was moved along by the plot saying so rather than getting to show off her team, Sophociles' race was pretty entertaining due to how much he used his wits and Pokemon's abilities and just the funny amount of personality throughout the whole episode.

  4. #5079
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    Quote Originally Posted by DatsRight View Post
    Well truthfully I prefer a good character being behind whatever action is going on. I get why people love XY's gym battles, because intuition was going on there, but too much of XY otherwise revolved around the plot moving the characters around rather than letting them shine based on their own attributes, making it harder to be invested in them. SM may have less climatic roles for the cast, but it feels a lot more like their characters are control of it.

    Serena's showcases were far more fully fledged an agenda than Sophociles one comical Charjabug race for example, but while Serena basically was moved along by the plot saying so rather than getting to show off her team, Sophociles' race was pretty entertaining due to how much he used his wits and Pokemon's abilities and just the funny amount of personality throughout the whole episode.
    Firstly, action/battles are same throughout entire series except Kanto. Kanto battles were weak since it's mostly KO even if doesn't feature TR.Example Gary vs Giovanni; Gary beat Golem with Tackle, Arcanine beat 8th gym Kingler with Fire Blast etc. SM's battles( except Team SKull KO's are same as previous ones except SM's lacked battles unlike previous series( we already debated about this so I won't go back).
    Secondly, XY's battles are "the best"by many only because of good animation.For me, I enjoyed Ash vs Trip's UL battle the same I enjoyed Greninja vs Gardevoir one for example. Just small factor that come with that: animation, Ash's development and who he battles with are what made XY's battles praised. But if we look at battles as they are: Pika vs Serp= Greninja vs Gard.

    Also, why do you keep jumping on SM vs XY always? Is there in your vocabulary DP vs SM, BW vs SM? Just wondering.Yes, Serena's character sucked in first 40 episodes compared to Lillie's for example, people debated that. How about we debate, Dawn vs Lillie, or Iris vs Lillie? I don't defend Serena, I am tired of people mentioning XY,like previous series don't exist, like XY is the only series that must be compared to SM. SMH.

  5. #5080
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    Quote Originally Posted by ash&charizardfan View Post
    Well charizard vs blastoise was inevitable and a callback to first pokemon game in which if player chooses charmander then the rival will choose squirrtle, but instead of having charizard vs blaziken match they could have made it typhlosion vs blaziken match with typhlosion fainting just like charizard did. It makes sense for a current monster to lose to a unknown pokemon which will eventually foreshadow his next journey to that region. I liked the fact that they used a hoenn pokemon to knock out ash. Johto league is my second favorite league after sinnoh league and if you take out the JL te johto saga will be mostly garbage except for some good gym battles and funny fillers.
    I guess I agree with Quilava(Typhlosion) starring in vs Harrison though they would've had to change some things to get there. Master Quest was a pretty good season and I think people tend to underrate Johto Journeys but Johto League Champions was pretty bad because of the absurd filler ratio that season.
    Peakachu Progression: Surge2 (Kanto) -> Drake (OI) -> Clair2 (Johto) -> Tyson (Hoenn) -> Brandon3 (BF) -> Tobias (Sinnoh) -> Alain3 (Kalos)

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  6. #5081
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    Quote Originally Posted by CMButch View Post
    Firstly, action/battles are same throughout entire series except Kanto. Kanto battles were weak since it's mostly KO even if doesn't feature TR.Example Gary vs Giovanni; Gary beat Golem with Tackle, Arcanine beat 8th gym Kingler with Fire Blast etc. SM's battles( except Team SKull KO's are same as previous ones except SM's lacked battles unlike previous series( we already debated about this so I won't go back).
    Secondly, XY's battles are "the best"by many only because of good animation.For me, I enjoyed Ash vs Trip's UL battle the same I enjoyed Greninja vs Gardevoir one for example. Just small factor that come with that: animation, Ash's development and who he battles with are what made XY's battles praised. But if we look at battles as they are: Pika vs Serp= Greninja vs Gard.

    Also, why do you keep jumping on SM vs XY always? Is there in your vocabulary DP vs SM, BW vs SM? Just wondering.Yes, Serena's character sucked in first 40 episodes compared to Lillie's for example, people debated that. How about we debate, Dawn vs Lillie, or Iris vs Lillie? I don't defend Serena, I am tired of people mentioning XY,like previous series don't exist, like XY is the only series that must be compared to SM. SMH.
    I use XY as a comparison because it is a key example of a series that had loads of battles and action but at the cost of being almost entirely plot driven.

    I feel like battles were too much of a go-to for any Pokemon's limelight anyway, contests and performing were often their best attempt at developing a Pokemon otherwise but even that didn't always do great substance wise. Most times beforehand a 'utility 'mon' was likely to spend it's run inactive outside brief 'Aquaman-ish' purposes, while in SM they have as much spotlight as the key battlers.

  7. #5082
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    Quote Originally Posted by DatsRight View Post
    I use XY as a comparison because it is a key example of a series that had loads of battles and action but at the cost of being almost entirely plot driven.

    I feel like battles were too much of a go-to for any Pokemon's limelight anyway, contests and performing were often their best attempt at developing a Pokemon otherwise but even that didn't always do great substance wise. Most times beforehand a 'utility 'mon' was likely to spend it's run inactive outside brief 'Aquaman-ish' purposes, while in SM they have as much spotlight as the key battlers.
    DP and BW had also lots of battles and in DP: plot was driven in since the start, while in XY; plot started way later.In DP plot started like in episode 20 when J appeared, while TF appeared in XYZ, while Lysandre debuted in ME arc. XY had Korrina arc and Malamar arc as sub-stories.Using the excuse for XY vs SM as; "XY had lots of battles and plot was driven the best" is invalid.

  8. #5083
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    Quote Originally Posted by CMButch View Post
    DP and BW had also lots of battles and in DP: plot was driven in since the start, while in XY; plot started way later.In DP plot started like in episode 20 when J appeared, while TF appeared in XYZ, while Lysandre debuted in ME arc. XY had Korrina arc and Malamar arc as sub-stories.Using the excuse for XY vs SM as; "XY had lots of battles and plot was driven the best" is invalid.
    Sun and Moon may not have "plot" but it's overall entertaining ans has enjoyable characters. Lillie Kiawe Lana Mallow Gladion and even Sophcles are all enjoyable and can handle a episode by themselves without it being extremely boring. XY tried so hard so be a Shoenn anime it's neglected almost all its characters besides Ash. Clemont didn't really do anything until the TF episodes, Serena was just given anything just so she wasn't known as ship bait, Tierno and Trevor were barely there, Shauna Miette and Nene were non threats and Sawyer and Alain were introduced so late the writing for them was sloppy.
    Last edited by AshxSatoshi; 20th September 2017 at 11:54 PM.

  9. #5084
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    Quote Originally Posted by AshxSatoshi View Post
    Sun and Moon may not have "plot" but it's overall entertaining ans has enjoyable characters. Lillie Kiawe Lana Mallow Gladion and even Sophcles are all enjoyable and can handle a episode by themselves without it being extremely boring. XY tried so hard so be a Shoenn anime it's neglected almost all its characters besides Ash. Clemont didn't really do anything until the TF episodes, Serena was just given anything just so she wasn't known as ship bait, Tierno and Trevor were barely there, Shauna Miette and Nene were non threats and Sawyer and Alain were introduced so late the writing for them was sloppy.
    You know, not to throw around Janovy's accusations of not watching the show, but have you really watched XY? Because if you had, all of those things wouldn't even occur to you.
    -Clemont had the most focus of the companions the first half building up to his gym battles with full episodes focused around him (I can count at least 10). Yes, he slid to the backburner afterwards until Flare, but even then had about 2 or 3 episodes dedicated to him.
    -Serena did develop beyond just "ship bait", even if it took a little bit of time to the point that watching Serena in the first 5 episodes is nothing like watching her in the last 5.
    -Tierno and Trevor were never major rivals, so that complaint is a little nitpicky.
    -None of Serena's rivals were meant to challenge her externally, and while I wish they could have done more with them but couldn't from time constraints, they were there to push Serena's internal development. Though you deny that's even a thing.
    -Alain was introduced in ME Special I. Yes, the rivalry with Ash could have used some work since there were only 2 major interactions pre-League, but he was still established as a character very early on. And Sawyer appeared halfway through the series, his rushed growth likely being a result of the time constraint they had to work around.

    I get it, you hate XY and have your opinion on it, fine, but at least for the first two points, stop making stuff up...geez...

  10. #5085
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    Quote Originally Posted by AshxSatoshi View Post
    Sun and Moon may not have "plot" but it's overall entertaining ans has enjoyable characters. Lillie Kiawe Lana Mallow Gladion and even Sophcles are all enjoyable and can handle a episode by themselves without it being extremely boring. XY tried so hard so be a Shoenn anime it's neglected almost all its characters besides Ash. Clemont didn't really do anything until the TF episodes, Serena was just given anything just so she wasn't known as ship bait, Tierno and Trevor were barely there, Shauna Miette and Nene were non threats and Sawyer and Alain were introduced so late the writing for them was sloppy.
    For me, the first 40 episodes of SM have been ok/meh at best. Sure there were good episodes but there sh*t ones that I had to skip some parts and one episode that I couldn't even finish( baseball episode).
    After 40 episode mark, first episode of Kanto arc was good only because of Misty and Brock.Tomorrow's episode will be epic according to preview likely the best one.
    And yes XY was more about "Ash" than others, which it was weak point(especially in first 40 episodes, after that; development branched into companions). Just because each series have one-two thing that they're awful at, doesn't make them awful. DP,AG,BW and XY have 1-2 weak things, while Johto may have have 1 more, while Kanto and SM( first 40 episodes) have like 3-4 weak things( I already said what those are in earlier posts); thus making them the weakest link but complete garbage. As I said Kanto and SM( so far) are Ok/meh at best. Sure, SM can overcome those in future. Like for example, it seems they will start overcoming "lack of battles" starting from next episode. I just hope they do.Also, I hope SM passes Kanto soon and Johto later. So it can focus on overtaking BW and maybe AG. I don't know if story would be good enough to overtake AG,though.
    Last edited by CMButch; 21st September 2017 at 12:20 AM.

  11. #5086
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    Quote Originally Posted by Epicocity View Post
    You know, not to throw around Janovy's accusations of not watching the show, but have you really watched XY? Because if you had, all of those things wouldn't even occur to you.
    -Clemont had the most focus of the companions the first half building up to his gym battles with full episodes focused around him (I can count at least 10). Yes, he slid to the backburner afterwards until Flare, but even then had about 2 or 3 episodes dedicated to him.
    -Serena did develop beyond just "ship bait", even if it took a little bit of time to the point that watching Serena in the first 5 episodes is nothing like watching her in the last 5.
    -Tierno and Trevor were never major rivals, so that complaint is a little nitpicky.
    -None of Serena's rivals were meant to challenge her externally, and while I wish they could have done more with them but couldn't from time constraints, they were there to push Serena's internal development. Though you deny that's even a thing.
    -Alain was introduced in ME Special I. Yes, the rivalry with Ash could have used some work since there were only 2 major interactions pre-League, but he was still established as a character very early on. And Sawyer appeared halfway through the series, his rushed growth likely being a result of the time constraint they had to work around.

    I get it, you hate XY and have your opinion on it, fine, but at least for the first two points, stop making stuff up...geez...
    Just because I don't hype the show up or like it doesn't mean I didn't watch it lol. Barry and Bianca were minor rivals yet was still developed. So the argument of "they were minor rivals so they don't count" is weak. How were her rivals there push her internally? Most of them were friendly, wished her the best and didn't give her a challenge at all. It really sounds like you are in denial about Serena's development so you make everything about "pushing her internal development" yet have nothing to back it up. Wether Alain was introduced in ME specials or not he was not introduced in the MAIN series until about 10 or more episodes before the league, hence why I said he had sloppy writing. And his whole reason for challenging the league was terrible. You basically just agreed with what I said about Sawyer lol. Just because I didn't interpret what you did with the show doesn't mean I didn't watch it. I know what happen I just didnt like it.
    Last edited by AshxSatoshi; 21st September 2017 at 12:27 AM.

  12. #5087
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    Jeez, what's with the constant XMoon vs SunY debates?

    Lets talk about Generations for once. How about that Cheryl/Chansey episode eh?

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    For me Origins was bad and one of the reasons is that they skip so much and in the end it gave us so little.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Frozocrone View Post
    Jeez, what's with the constant XMoon vs SunY debates?

    Lets talk about Generations for once. How about that Cheryl/Chansey episode eh?
    Meh Generations was awful imo. It was too short, the plots weren't that interesting, and only the male protagonists appeared, and they had like no face and no personality as well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pokegirl Fan~ View Post
    Meh Generations was awful imo. It was too short, the plots weren't that interesting, and only the male protagonists appeared, and they had like no face and no personality as well.
    I think it would have been the same if the female protagonists appeared.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pokegirl Fan~ View Post
    Meh Generations was awful imo. It was too short, the plots weren't that interesting, and only the male protagonists appeared, and they had like no face and no personality as well.
    Would have been no different if they used the females.
    At least most of the males FINALLY got some damn presence in animation.
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  17. #5092
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pokegirl Fan~ View Post
    Meh Generations was awful imo. It was too short, the plots weren't that interesting, and only the male protagonists appeared, and they had like no face and no personality as well.
    I didn't expect much from the plot because they were five minutes.

    Characters I understand. Maybe the intent was to have the PC be bland so people could envision themselves on him?

    I do wonder why they didn't have a few female PCs though.

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  18. #5093
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frozocrone View Post
    I didn't expect much from the plot because they were five minutes.

    Characters I understand. Maybe the intent was to have the PC be bland so people could envision themselves on him?

    I do wonder why they didn't have a few female PCs though.
    Because they where in AG, DP, and XY.

  19. #5094
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    Quote Originally Posted by Epicocity View Post
    You know, not to throw around Janovy's accusations of not watching the show, but have you really watched XY? Because if you had, all of those things wouldn't even occur to you.
    -Clemont had the most focus of the companions the first half building up to his gym battles with full episodes focused around him (I can count at least 10). Yes, he slid to the backburner afterwards until Flare, but even then had about 2 or 3 episodes dedicated to him.
    -Serena did develop beyond just "ship bait", even if it took a little bit of time to the point that watching Serena in the first 5 episodes is nothing like watching her in the last 5.
    -Tierno and Trevor were never major rivals, so that complaint is a little nitpicky.
    -None of Serena's rivals were meant to challenge her externally, and while I wish they could have done more with them but couldn't from time constraints, they were there to push Serena's internal development. Though you deny that's even a thing.
    -Alain was introduced in ME Special I. Yes, the rivalry with Ash could have used some work since there were only 2 major interactions pre-League, but he was still established as a character very early on. And Sawyer appeared halfway through the series, his rushed growth likely being a result of the time constraint they had to work around.

    I get it, you hate XY and have your opinion on it, fine, but at least for the first two points, stop making stuff up...geez...
    Cilan had far more focus than clemont even in first 60 episodes even though his gym match was finished earlier. He did participated in more battles, in various competitions like with fishing one and making a film and even to this day is only 3rd wheel to get own rival. In comparison clemont's early episodes were mostly fillers except for luxray evolution+ capture, chespin capture and his gym recapture. Cilan with his multiple skillsets was definitely better written character than clemont who only had his inventions stuff as his skill (even that was a gag) was even though he was little perfect.
    Favourite Characters- Ash, Serena, Lillie, Dawn, Gladion, Cilan, Brock, Cynthia, Kiawe, Lana, Lance, Alain, Steven Stone

    Favourite Pokemon- Charizard, Venasaur, Blastoise, Gengar, Mewtwo, Rayquaza, Sceptile, Greninja, Garachomp, Infernape, Gliscor, Salamence, Arceus

    Watching pokemon for 17 years, grown up while watching this show. Also liked the different characters form different sagas. I hate genwunners.

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    For all the SM vs XY comparisons, I don't think SM ditched EVERYTHING about XY, it did utilise SOME trial and error and kept some of it's good points. SM Ash is more clownish and vibrant for example, but he still has loads of direct checks to his XY behaviour, being noticeably insightful and almost detrimentally altruistic. They knew to maintain most of Pikachu's experience this time as well, and cleverly used the games' new concepts like Z Moves and differently handled agendas to justify him and Ash struggling this time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DatsRight View Post
    For all the SM vs XY comparisons, I don't think SM ditched EVERYTHING about XY, it did utilise SOME trial and error and kept some of it's good points. SM Ash is more clownish and vibrant for example, but he still has loads of direct checks to his XY behaviour, being noticeably insightful and almost detrimentally altruistic. They knew to maintain most of Pikachu's experience this time as well, and cleverly used the games' new concepts like Z Moves and differently handled agendas to justify him and Ash struggling this time.
    Well Ash is still a great batter so i'm give SM that.

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    I thought Origins and most of the Generations episodes were really boring. Origins was really boring since if you already played the games a million times by now, you'll know what'll happen. Generations I thought wasn't very interesting aside from a few of them like the episode with Emma and Looker or when Iris was backed up by the other Gym Leaders. I feel like they were just so well received because the art style gave them a more mature, traditional shounen anime look. One thing I give credit to both series that I liked were that they gave animation to the events that happened in the games... but they should've used Hilda instead of Hilbert in the N episode.
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  23. #5098
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    Quote Originally Posted by DatsRight View Post
    For all the SM vs XY comparisons, I don't think SM ditched EVERYTHING about XY, it did utilise SOME trial and error and kept some of it's good points. SM Ash is more clownish and vibrant for example, but he still has loads of direct checks to his XY behaviour, being noticeably insightful and almost detrimentally altruistic. They knew to maintain most of Pikachu's experience this time as well, and cleverly used the games' new concepts like Z Moves and differently handled agendas to justify him and Ash struggling this time.
    Controversial Opinion: I bet Datsright can't go a dozen posts without talking about XY or Serena. =P

    Quote Originally Posted by AshxSatoshi View Post
    I don't see you (or anyone else for that matter) bringing up the Thunder Armour gym battle from AG and that was even a bigger mess.
    Thunder Armor was basically Swellow activating Guts. It was only BS when his feathers turned: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UePtoxDhJSw

    It was foreshadowed in Taillow's capture episode, and consistent with Swellow's juggernaut feats.

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    Yeah, I think we'll put this thread on hold for a bit until you learn to behave.

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