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Thread: Controversial Opinions Thread *Possible Spoilers for SM*

  1. #2726
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    Quote Originally Posted by DatsRight View Post
    I don't buy that there wasn't enough time, they could have easily ditched one or two fillers to give one of her rivals a win (Miette likely could have used it), or even just had Jessie win legit. It was kind of uncreative to have BOTH her losses through tripping anyway.

    Even at that, Serena wasn't really given much substance in her victories, she never really changed things up or evolved her strategies besides 'ooh new haircut, new more mature direction, unstoppable now'. Again not just being invincible, but damn well boring and undeveloped about it. At least with Ash there was demonstration why he had a winning streak.
    Except if this was the intended way Tripokalons were supposed to be written, then there wasn't enough time because of how the writers structured her goal, only needing 3 Keys, instead needing 5 Ribbons in Contests, which meant more screentime for Contests in general and structure of Contests is different. You think her losses weren't creative, because you don't understand them. They had her Pokemon trip in her first one because they needed something devastating to happen to Serena to trigger her meltdown scene, which we saw later. It was her very first Tripokalon and step towards her goal, and tripping on a runway during a fashion type show/round is taboo and a crap way to lose, especially when she knew that it was her fault. If Serena would've advanced and then lost or just outright lost because her design wasn't good enough, the reaction that follows later wouldn't have been as genuine or deserved, and it would've been recycled material (Dawn not advancing because her appeal wasn't good enough and feeling terrible afterword). So, it was something different. The second instance was simply Eevee losing its concentration and gaining experience. We knew Eevee's shy nature at the time, it had never been in such a situation before, so it was realistic. Serena not stopping the Performance to go comfort Eevee when it took a spill, reassuring Eevee that it was okay, finishing the Performance, just shows how Serena has developed. It also strengthened her bond between her and Eevee and Eevee gained experience from the Performance to help work through its shyness. That was the intention of both instances IMHO and it makes sense. Her losses and the way she lost, for all intent and purpose, was meant for character development and her Pokemon as well.

    There were subtle changes in her Peformances, but I blame the writers for not changing them up completely. Yeah no, that wasn't the point of her haircut. The point of it was cultural and symbolic (making a dramatic break from her past), which she demonstrates numerous times within her goal and herself. She grew more confident, didn't give up when a bad situation presented itself, and showed that she wasn't the same Serena beforehand, who had no goal or direction with her life. You can't seem unstoppable or invincible if one loses twice within your goal (after her haircut). Serena had a winning streak? How long was that, like 2 in a row..? Huge winning streak there man...

    Quote Originally Posted by DatsRight View Post
    I think a lot of criticisms with the XY cast, particularly Serena, Sawyer and MAYBE Alain, stems from lack of substance in their role. Too much stuff happens randomly, offscreen or with little element to their actual personality and work. Sawyer and Serena were just randomly made on par with Ash at one particular point of the series for example, the training and build up and putting characteristic into their methods beforehand, ie. the actual enticing element, wasn't there. It doesn't just feel cheap, it also makes their role feel a bit flat. Hell Serena, whose a performer AND intended to eventually do contests, should be the character most putting inventiveness and entertainment value into everything she does, yet she was usually so undeveloped and boring to watch in action.
    Umm...when did Serena ever say or when was it ever said that Serena "intended" to do Contests? It was presented to her at the very end of the series and Serena didn't even know about Contests until then.

    If you want to continue to hate on Serena and keep making the same repetitive statements, then that's obviously your choice, but please don't misconstrue things about her, it's obnoxious and hurts your credibility. Maybe that's one of your foibles, I don't know.
    Last edited by Daniel31; Yesterday at 11:15 PM. Reason: few typos

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel31 View Post
    Umm...when did Serena ever say or when was it ever said that Serena "intended" to do Contests? It was presented to her at the very end of the series and Serena didn't even know about Contests until then.

    If you want to continue to hate on Serena and keep making the same repetitive statements, then that's obviously your choice, but please don't misconstrue things about her, it's obnoxious and hurts your credibility. Maybe that's one of your foibles, I don't know.
    Not SHE intended in-story but the writers intended for her to enter contests eventually, and what's more they demonstrate the potential by having her suddenly able to keep up with Ash in a battle and put on a flashy strategic performance (ie. something that could win a contest) despite never putting on a remotely as interesting display beforehand. Even ignoring how sudden and cheap an evolution this is for her, wouldn't it have been a THOUSAND times more entertaining to show her slowly develop this battle style throughout the series to foreshadow her potential in contests? Instead of 140+ episodes of spamming the same basic tricks and then all of a sudden an inventive pro for HER VERY LAST EPISODE?

    Making her boring and uninventive in both showcases and battles for most of her run not only hurts the entertainment value of things, but kind of goes against her goal as a performer, who pretty much has to be the total opposite of that.
    Last edited by DatsRight; Yesterday at 9:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DatsRight View Post
    Not SHE intended in-story but the writers intended for her to enter contests eventually, and what's more they demonstrate the potential by having her suddenly able to keep up with Ash in a battle and put on a flashy strategic performance (ie. something that could win a contest) despite never putting on a remotely as interesting display beforehand. Even ignoring how sudden and cheap an evolution this is for her, wouldn't it have been a THOUSAND times more entertaining to show her slowly develop this battle style throughout the series to foreshadow her potential in contests? Instead of 140+ episodes of spamming the same basic tricks and then all of a sudden an inventive pro for HER VERY LAST EPISODE?

    Making her boring and uninventive in both showcases and battles for most of her run not only hurts the entertainment value of things, but kind of goes against her goal as a performer, who pretty much has to be the total opposite of that.
    Becoming Kalos Queen is still her #1 goal, she's only doing Contests to learn more, so she can become Kalos Queen. It's not like she's doing Contests to win a Grand Festival or rival other past characters. I think you're putting too much emphasis on those "intentions" of her doing Contests. She did use strategy in her battle with Aria, btw, which was moves/combination that she displays in her Performances.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DatsRight View Post
    Not SHE intended in-story but the writers intended for her to enter contests eventually, and what's more they demonstrate the potential by having her suddenly able to keep up with Ash in a battle and put on a flashy strategic performance (ie. something that could win a contest) despite never putting on a remotely as interesting display beforehand. Even ignoring how sudden and cheap an evolution this is for her, wouldn't it have been a THOUSAND times more entertaining to show her slowly develop this battle style throughout the series to foreshadow her potential in contests? Instead of 140+ episodes of spamming the same basic tricks and then all of a sudden an inventive pro for HER VERY LAST EPISODE?

    Making her boring and uninventive in both showcases and battles for most of her run not only hurts the entertainment value of things, but kind of goes against her goal as a performer, who pretty much has to be the total opposite of that.
    Um, I don't see where you get the idea that she was this expert battler in XYZ 45. It was pretty clearly shown that Pikachu was well on top of the battle and Braixen managed to finally break through and land a single hit on Pikachu before Ash made a comment and Serena found her direction. That's not exactly "keeping up with Ash".

    Like Daniel31 said: keep hating all you want, but please stop misconstruing obvious facts and evidence for your narrative. It's really getting old to hear the same rhetoric that has been shown to be wrong by multiple people time and again...

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    Quote Originally Posted by DatsRight View Post
    Not SHE intended in-story but the writers intended for her to enter contests eventually, and what's more they demonstrate the potential by having her suddenly able to keep up with Ash in a battle and put on a flashy strategic performance (ie. something that could win a contest) despite never putting on a remotely as interesting display beforehand. Even ignoring how sudden and cheap an evolution this is for her, wouldn't it have been a THOUSAND times more entertaining to show her slowly develop this battle style throughout the series to foreshadow her potential in contests? Instead of 140+ episodes of spamming the same basic tricks and then all of a sudden an inventive pro for HER VERY LAST EPISODE?

    Making her boring and uninventive in both showcases and battles for most of her run not only hurts the entertainment value of things, but kind of goes against her goal as a performer, who pretty much has to be the total opposite of that.
    Braixen lands a single hit on Pikachu, and suddenly that makes Serena on par with Ash? That's an exaggeration if I ever heard one. Braixen was never implied to be on the same level as Pikachu, and Serena was never implied to be on the same level as Ash. Please stop exaggerating scenes or misconstruing facts to support your argument.

    There was no need to foreshadow any potential Serena might have in Contests, because she was never meant to be or set up to be a Coordinator. You seem to be forgetting that Palermo suggested Serena enter Contests as a way to improve her Performing skills. She is not entering Contests to become a Coordinator; she is entering Contests to develop skills and techniques to supplement her Performances. There's a difference.

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    Either way, that battle was a thousand times more eventful than nearly any other one Serena had, they made her look competent and inventive in spite of losing, while every other battle it was the exact opposite. There was a clear quality difference between most of her other ones that could have been transitioned better, and likely would have made her action scenes a lot more interesting. Same for Sawyer just becoming competent offscreen. Not touching development that could make a character more compelling to watch.

    I actually don't get why people put XY's battles on such a high pedestal, especially the later ones. The very best ones were maybe top of the anime's game, but not by that much, and they were only very key battles of the series like the gyms, the majority were either unfinished or basic 'Dodge and basic attack' spams, just with flashy animation. People trashed this week's SM battle, but it didn't seem anymore basic than what XY delivered.
    Last edited by DatsRight; Yesterday at 11:39 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Satomine Night View Post
    There was no need to foreshadow any potential Serena might have in Contests, because she was never meant to be or set up to be a Coordinator. You seem to be forgetting that Palermo suggested Serena enter Contests as a way to improve her Performing skills. She is not entering Contests to become a Coordinator; she is entering Contests to develop skills and techniques to supplement her Performances. There's a difference.
    Personally I wouldn't have a problem if Serena does become a Coordinator. Then again, we'll probably never see her compete in Contests any ways, so it might not matter what she does. ^^;

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. Oreo View Post
    Personally I wouldn't have a problem if Serena does become a Coordinator. Then again, we'll probably never see her compete in Contests any ways, so it might not matter what she does. ^^;
    Neither would I. At least Contests involve battling while at the same time they have aspects that Serena would very quickly adapt to and would suit her.
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    I don't think it's bad having a non-battle companion, but they didn't seem to make up their mind with Serena and she ended up with little substance or distinction in her talent.

    While the SM companions aren't wonderfully developed in their goals, they are much better structured in not having a battle focused one right now since their roles don't make them battle outside maybe once or twice every dozen episodes. Serena was made to battle nearly the entire series and even for a lot of her development, the method to unfold it was a battle.

    When you always force a character into a situation they're not designed to make interesting, it's going to make the show dull as cardboard. But it's even more baffling when you make said situation part of their path afterwards and so all that time being.....bad...but...good...but not really supposed to-what the hell is it going for- was completely pointless.
    Last edited by DatsRight; Today at 12:19 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DatsRight View Post
    I don't think it's bad having a non-battle companion, but they didn't seem to make up their mind with Serena and she ended up with little substance or distinction in her talent.

    While the SM companions aren't wonderfully developed in their goals, they are much better structured in not having a battle focused one right now since their roles don't make them battle outside maybe once or twice every dozen episodes. Serena was made to battle nearly the entire series and even for a lot of her development, the method to unfold it was a battle.

    When you always force a character into a situation they're not designed to make interesting, it's going to make the show dull as cardboard. But it's even more baffling when you make said situation part of their path afterwards and so all that time being.....bad...but...good...but not really supposed to-what the hell is it going for- was completely pointless.
    I like the way you wrote this. It is interesting when a character is forced into a situation she wasn't prepared/ready/designed for but Serena has done that many times which was leaving home in pursue of finding Ash, having to dress up as him to fight off a rocker Pikachu with Ash's Pikachu, and now, start all over again in new territory she knows so little about. I do remember a lot of users saying what you're saying ("I don't think it's bad having a non-battle companion, but they didn't seem to make up their mind with Serena") which did feel that way in the beginning... and sort of during the middle end but her main point is her own personal growth on her own, left with her own thoughts and feelings rather than growing through her goal. Maybe the way she grew didn't appeal to you (I'd say the same for myself but there were parts where I really enjoyed her) but are you suggesting say, the haircut scene where she vows to change but in the end, didn't really in terms of not structuring her Performances, not given another chance to shine to show her badassery, or not completing a match without it seeming forced in her favor is what you partly mean in her having little substance or distinction in her talent?
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    Speaking of Coordinators, Jessie deserved more respect when she was one. She might have been a villain, but often times she had the most creative appeals, unlike May's and Dawn's constant ice appeal spam.

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    Quote Originally Posted by satopi View Post
    I like the way you wrote this. It is interesting when a character is forced into a situation she wasn't prepared/ready/designed for but Serena has done that many times which was leaving home in pursue of finding Ash, having to dress up as him to fight off a rocker Pikachu with Ash's Pikachu, and now, start all over again in new territory she knows so little about. I do remember a lot of users saying what you're saying ("I don't think it's bad having a non-battle companion, but they didn't seem to make up their mind with Serena") which did feel that way in the beginning... and sort of during the middle end but her main point is her own personal growth on her own, left with her own thoughts and feelings rather than growing through her goal. Maybe the way she grew didn't appeal to you (I'd say the same for myself but there were parts where I really enjoyed her) but are you suggesting say, the haircut scene where she vows to change but in the end, didn't really in terms of not structuring her Performances, not given another chance to shine to show her badassery, or not completing a match without it seeming forced in her favor is what you partly mean in her having little substance or distinction in her talent?
    As in forced into a situation the writers had NO INTENT of making her work with, not just unprepared for story wise, they never made a single good battle with her until that very last point, likely so she didn't look like a no hoper in the contests. But yes otherwise that is what I mean. She could have worked in slice of life stuff like in SM because that was usually where her character shone, but having it spliced into constant battle or performance situations where the writers couldn't be bothered developing on her niches properly or in a way that was that entertaining didn't work out for her. It just made her seem more boring and half baked when she didn't have to be.

    Quote Originally Posted by Wednesdayz View Post
    Speaking of Coordinators, Jessie deserved more respect when she was one. She might have been a villain, but often times she had the most creative appeals, unlike May's and Dawn's constant ice appeal spam.
    Dawn I'll give credit, they tried to give her the same pedestal as everyone else, and Jessie was allowed to progress and beat her when it fit that. But yeah Jessie kind of punctuated the plot protection of May and Serena, if largely because she was their one ever recurring opponent and thus had to lose most of the time no matter how much more creative she was. She was definitely the more charismatic villain against the vanilla hero for them.

    They did at least let Jessie get in the semi finals for the showcases though, even if they didn't track her other keys, again avoiding substance (even if it was more believable Jessie could win showcases than Serena).
    Last edited by DatsRight; Today at 1:03 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wednesdayz View Post
    Speaking of Coordinators, Jessie deserved more respect when she was one. She might have been a villain, but often times she had the most creative appeals, unlike May's and Dawn's constant ice appeal spam.
    Meh Jessie was a leech; she felt like she was shoehorned into contests imo :/

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    Meh, I like Team Rocket going into rivalries where they can actually show their stuff and be worthy opponents. It plays on their 'villains who would be better going legit' shtick. The Sinnoh contests were a clear cut case of this (especially the little arc between Noodles Roamin' Off and Dressed for Jess Success) and the Kalos showcases could have been if again not for the lack of substance in Serena and Jessie's victories.

    I could argue Jessie felt LESS shoehorned into the showcases than Serena, given her coordinator background.
    Last edited by DatsRight; Today at 1:02 AM.

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    Jessie had the best performances point blank. Sure she'll shoehorn herself into the Contests/Tripokalons but it's expected and she's drawn to careers where she owns the spotlight. It's too bad she didn't have a chance in beating Kalos Klown Aria just because she's (most likely) seen as less youthful and pretty.
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    We didn't even see most of Aria's performance. Seriously the talent/placement hierarchy seemed reversed throughout the showcases. You make a character win all the time, you can at least develop it properly.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DatsRight View Post
    We didn't even see most of Aria's performance. Seriously the talent/placement hierarchy seemed reversed throughout the showcases. You make a character win all the time, you can at least develop it properly.
    What I disliked about her performances was how the crowd was clearly biased in favor of her. I bet she could've tripped on stage and she still would've gotten the most votes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DatsRight View Post
    As in forced into a situation the writers had NO INTENT of making her work with, not just unprepared for story wise, they never made a single good battle with her until that very last point, likely so she didn't look like a no hoper in the contests. But yes otherwise that is what I mean. She could have worked in slice of life stuff like in SM because that was usually where her character shone, but having it spliced into constant battle or performance situations where the writers couldn't be bothered developing on her niches properly or in a way that was that entertaining didn't work out for her. It just made her seem more boring and half baked when she didn't have to be.
    Aside from battles against Team Rocket (whom Serena defeated because they were Team Rocket and were the obligatory curbstomp victims, not necessarily because the writers wanted to portray Serena as a competent battler despite her inexperience), when were all these battles you claim Serena was shoved into? I can think of only a handful of times she battled, and not all of them were easy victories; in fact, a few of them she lost.

    So Serena's battles seemed uninteresting compared to, say, Ash's battles. She was never meant to be a battler, and battling was never part of her main goal. Her battles (excluding those against Team Rocket) were not meant for her to win or lose, but for her to learn something, which she did. Is there a reason you seem to continue to deny or ignore how her battles helped her character growth?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel31 View Post
    Except if this was the intended way Tripokalons were supposed to be written, then there wasn't enough time because of how the writers structured her goal, only needing 3 Keys, instead needing 5 Ribbons in Contests, which meant more screentime for Contests in general and structure of Contests is different. You think her losses weren't creative, because you don't understand them. They had her Pokemon trip in her first one because they needed something devastating to happen to Serena to trigger her meltdown scene, which we saw later. It was her very first Tripokalon and step towards her goal, and tripping on a runway during a fashion type show/round is taboo and a crap way to lose, especially when she knew that it was her fault. If Serena would've advanced and then lost or just outright lost because her design wasn't good enough, the reaction that follows later wouldn't have been as genuine or deserved, and it would've been recycled material (Dawn not advancing because her appeal wasn't good enough and feeling terrible afterword). So, it was something different. The second instance was simply Eevee losing its concentration and gaining experience. We knew Eevee's shy nature at the time, it had never been in such a situation before, so it was realistic. Serena not stopping the Performance to go comfort Eevee when it took a spill, reassuring Eevee that it was okay, finishing the Performance, just shows how Serena has developed. It also strengthened her bond between her and Eevee and Eevee gained experience from the Performance to help work through its shyness. That was the intention of both instances IMHO and it makes sense. Her losses and the way she lost, for all intent and purpose, was meant for character development and her Pokemon as well. There were subtle changes in her Peformances, but I blame the writers for not changing them up completely. Yeah no, that wasn't the point of her haircut. The point of it was cultural and symbolic (making a dramatic break from her past), which she demonstrates numerous times within her goal and herself. She grew more confident, didn't give up when a bad situation presented itself, and showed that she wasn't the same Serena beforehand, who had no goal or direction with her life. You can't seem unstoppable or invincible if one loses twice within your goal (after her haircut). Serena had a winning streak? How long was that, like 2 in a row..? Huge winning streak there man...
    Her Pokemon 'tripping/stumbling twice, in a way that subtly shifts blame away from her to them, are supposed to be creative losses? Lol...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maldread View Post
    Her Pokemon 'tripping/stumbling twice, in a way that subtly shifts blame away from her to them, are supposed to be creative losses? Lol...
    Yeah, they shifted the blame to her Pokemon, when she explicitly says that both instances were her fault. Good job there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maldread View Post
    Her Pokemon 'tripping/stumbling twice, in a way that subtly shifts blame away from her to them, are supposed to be creative losses? Lol...
    Except the blame for those mishaps was shifted from the Pokémon to Serena. She was the reason Fennekin tripped, as she wasn't careful when she designed its costume for the fashion show--something she herself admitted. She could also be blamed for Eevee tripping, as one could argue she didn't take the time necessary to help Eevee overcome its shyness and stage fright before she put it on stage in front of an entire crowd of people.

    Did you miss the point of Daniel31's entire post?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maldread View Post
    Her Pokemon 'tripping/stumbling twice, in a way that subtly shifts blame away from her to them, are supposed to be creative losses? Lol...
    No, both the losses were on her, and does not shift it from her to her Pokémon. For her first loss, she didn't cut the ribbon to an appropriate length which is her fault since it showed that she lacked the ability to forsee and prepare for such a situation that might occur. And the second loss was also on her since she knew Eevee was shy and might mess up, so she didn't exactly prepare it well enough for such a stage.

    And seriously, she even explicitly took the blame for both losses, so don't twist the meaning here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daniel31 View Post
    Yeah, they shifted the blame to her Pokemon, when she explicitly says that both instances were her fault. Good job there.
    Obviously you missed the word 'subtly.' Good job there.

    Instead of something more substantial like Serena shoehorning Eevee into a particular style, which leads to a straight-up loss, the loss originates from Eevee's shyness.
    Quote Originally Posted by Satomine Night View Post
    Did you miss the point of Daniel31's entire post?
    I understood it from when the episodes first aired. Doesn't absolve it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Akkipeddi View Post
    And seriously, she even explicitly took the blame for both losses, so don't twist the meaning here.
    Yes, it is her fault. The way it's shown minimizes that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maldread View Post
    Obviously you missed the word 'subtly.' Good job there.
    There is nothing subtle about Serena outright admitting her loss was her fault. Perhaps you felt the blame was shifted from Serena to her Pokémon, but I certainly didn't. I blamed Serena and Serena alone for those losses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maldread View Post
    Instead of something more substantial like Serena shoehorning Eevee into a particular style, which leads to a straight-up loss, the loss originates from Eevee's shyness.
    How is putting an extremely shy Pokémon on stage when it's nowhere near ready any less substantial than forcing it to perform a style it's not used to? Remember that Serena and her Pokémon did practice before each Performance, so Eevee messing up due to not being used to a particular style, when it had many opportunities to practice, does not seem as valid as excuse as messing up due to stage fright, something which was not worked on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maldread View Post
    Obviously you missed the word 'subtly.' Good job there.

    Instead of something more substantial like Serena shoehorning Eevee into a particular style, which leads to a straight-up loss, the loss originates from Eevee's shyness.
    I didn't miss the word "subtle," but something can't be subtle if it's clearly stated who's fault it was. So, I don't know why you would even say that.

    Yes, it originates from Eevee's shyness, which was a realistic way of doing it. That's not to say that the way you suggested isn't either, but Eevee already had that problem when it was first found by Serena, so why not deal with it or exploit it in such a way, where it's going to give her Pokemon some development (overcoming a problem/fear). Like I said before, it also showed the development Serena was obtaining as well, because when it took a spill, Serena finished the performance and didn't quit. It also strengthened their bond. So, the writers in a sense, killed two/three birds with one stone there. Sounds pretty creative to me.

    Credit for the banner goes to Satomine Night!
    - Also a member of Serena The Kalos Queen Fan Club, Serena4ever!

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