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Thread: Prejudice Plus Power and Racism and Sexism

  1. #326
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    You're going on about this trump card of yours? People are ignoring you because it's a strawman, Scammel.
    It's a direct contradiction to daft statements like 'My only point to you was that white people (or people with white skin) do not suffer prejudice in the same way people of colour do'. It's demonstrably untrue.

    Now, if the argument were to be that this is solely the American experience of racism, sure - it makes sense to discuss American institutional racism with the unspoken understanding that we're mostly talking about prejudice against black people. But it's a mistake to frame the overall human experience of racism in that one specific context.

    The prejudice + power definition does not forbid white ethnic groups from experiencing racism, it forbids minorities from being racist.
    Again, the anti-Semitism example is a great counterpoint, because Muslim minorities commit the greatest proportion of hate crimes against Jews in some European countries.

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    It's a direct contradiction to daft statements like 'My only point to you was that white people (or people with white skin) do not suffer prejudice in the same way people of colour do'. It's demonstrably untrue.
    They don't. It is demonstrably true.

    Someone who is white can often hide their origins and who they are - whether they're Jewish, Irish, homosexual, whatever. We're not saying other groups don't suffer, they do. Black people tend to suffer more, though, because they can't help but present as black short of bleaching their skin. That is privilege that should be acknowledged.

    Again, the anti-Semitism example is a great counterpoint, because Muslim minorities commit the greatest proportion of hate crimes against Jews in some European countries.
    This would also go back to my earlier point as well that acts such as these still have the same emotional gravitas under prejudice, using racism which has connotations of power isn't necessary to describe minority on minority hate crime. But you know, 'round and 'round the circle I guess.
    Last edited by Baba Yaga; 17th July 2017 at 8:01 PM.

  3. #328
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    Yaga covered everything perfectly the past few days


    Quote Originally Posted by Sadib View Post
    Which is ridiculous. If white people can be racist against white people, black people should be able to be racist against black people.
    The problem is that when the Irish, etc experienced discrimination (which was like, centuries ago), they weren't considered "white". the problem is with the context of the word "white" which has changed throughout history. Today, most of these cultures have pretty much assimilated with whiteness enough for them to pass as most things.

    I can't speak for Jewish people but for the most part in the western world, they still mostly benefit from white-passing privilege at least. I don't know if you can call oppression against current day Jews racism in our world. Perhaps in the worlds Scammel was describing if they are easily visible, traceable, and it is directly systematic to their experiences.

    .... But when we consider the greater total of the world has mostly been under euro colonization and we know universally (even in countries that have darker skin on average), light skin is seen as more beneficial, it's hard to insert Jews as a significant part of how we define racism in most countries. I think what's important is the historical significance of European exploration that was done across the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sadib View Post
    Maybe I shouldn't have made black people the victim in my example. Let's say a black person hates Chinese immigrants. You wouldn't say that's racism, but you're defining racism around white people. That's quite problematic. I would just say it's regular racism, and when white people do it, it's powered racism or institutional racism. That way there can actually be a word for discrimination based on race.
    Ehh, I guess that is logically consistent enough but what do you mean by "Quite problematic"?

    You can't prove my specious and engender statements wrong. It's impossible.
    .. The dictionary is still not the sole source of objective information on communication.

    As easily as words change in history and as much of a mixed bag the English language is, it really wouldn't surprise me if it were impossible anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by chuboy View Post
    Quick, someone get the scientific community onto this one! A truly brilliant hypothesis that would have been insofar overlooked by every researcher who has contributed to this field of science. And it's only 8th grade stuff!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Zero
    I roam Johto with my partner Pokemon, Rattata, who knows Hyper Fang, Sunny Day, Rock Smash and Cut. Anyone who runs with more than one Pokemon or evolves their Pokemon takes the game way too seriously.

  4. #329
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    Quote Originally Posted by chess-z View Post
    So, since dictionaries are typically written by Highly Educated White Men with Degrees in English, no matter their intentions, good, bad, or simply neutral, they are written with those inherent subconcious biases possessed by Highly Educated White Men with Degrees in English.

    It's kinda dumb to hold them up as pinnacles of objectivity. To everyone who would thump a goddamn dictionary in this debate and to everyone who has: Please stop.
    Bringing this back cause we're still hung up on dictionaries for some reason.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostAnime View Post
    a 3DS debater. nice.

  5. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scammel View Post
    It's a direct contradiction to daft statements like 'My only point to you was that white people (or people with white skin) do not suffer prejudice in the same way people of colour do'. It's demonstrably untrue.

    Now, if the argument were to be that this is solely the American experience of racism, sure - it makes sense to discuss American institutional racism with the unspoken understanding that we're mostly talking about prejudice against black people. But it's a mistake to frame the overall human experience of racism in that one specific context.
    I agree with Baba Yaga that it is true. We are talking solely about America. We're not talking about how albinos in Africa are discriminated against, which was actually brought up by some idiot who wasn't happy about my university getting a Black Student Center.

    Quote Originally Posted by GhostAnime View Post
    Yaga covered everything perfectly the past few days

    The problem is that when the Irish, etc experienced discrimination (which was like, centuries ago), they weren't considered "white". the problem is with the context of the word "white" which has changed throughout history. Today, most of these cultures have pretty much assimilated with whiteness enough for them to pass as most things.

    I can't speak for Jewish people but for the most part in the western world, they still mostly benefit from white-passing privilege at least. I don't know if you can call oppression against current day Jews racism in our world. Perhaps in the worlds Scammel was describing if they are easily visible, traceable, and it is directly systematic to their experiences.

    .... But when we consider the greater total of the world has mostly been under euro colonization and we know universally (even in countries that have darker skin on average), light skin is seen as more beneficial, it's hard to insert Jews as a significant part of how we define racism in most countries. I think what's important is the historical significance of European exploration that was done across the world.


    Ehh, I guess that is logically consistent enough but what do you mean by "Quite problematic"?


    .. The dictionary is still not the sole source of objective information on communication.

    As easily as words change in history and as much of a mixed bag the English language is, it really wouldn't surprise me if it were impossible anyway.
    Are you denying (or at least minimizing) antisemitism in America?

    I meant quite problematic because it's giving a word the definition of its subset. It's like if I said that a rectangles need to have four equal sides to be rectangles.

    Quote Originally Posted by chess-z View Post
    So, since dictionaries are typically written by Highly Educated White Men with Degrees in English, no matter their intentions, good, bad, or simply neutral, they are written with those inherent subconcious biases possessed by Highly Educated White Men with Degrees in English.

    It's kinda dumb to hold them up as pinnacles of objectivity. To everyone who would thump a goddamn dictionary in this debate and to everyone who has: Please stop.
    This reminds me of when I was telling someone that there was a guest on the Colbert Report who said there's a study that birth order can affect homosexuality in male children. She responded with, "Well, Colbert is a straight white man, whose experiences with the world are different. We can't take his word too seriously."
    Last edited by Sadib; 13th July 2017 at 10:33 PM.
    Jackpot!

    I have a theory that the Pokémon world and the Mother world are one in the same. I won't go into spoilers for Mother 3, but think of Black and White's story of the dragon and the twins. Also, chimeras are kind of like Pokémon.

  6. #331
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    The problem is that when the Irish, etc experienced discrimination (which was like, centuries ago), they weren't considered "white"
    Your very own source, again: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.0140e279ff46

    I don't know if you can call oppression against current day Jews racism in our world. Perhaps in the worlds Scammel was describing if they are easily visible, traceable, and it is directly systematic to their experiences.
    It's not racism if you have to live in fear of ever having your identity discovered, if it's possible to hide at all. It's not racism if society at large thinks you are literally an animal, as long as you keep lying. It's not racism if you're forced to disavow your own culture for fear of vandalism or worse. Just don't wear Jewish clothes, guys.

    Honestly asking now - what do you actually know about the history of Jew hatred? Like, do you know what the word pogrom means? Do you know what the Quran has to say about Jews? Do you know what the blood libel is? You said you've never seen visual anti-Semitic tropes, so I assume the name Kristalnacht or perhaps Bergen-Belsen mean little to you?

    I mean, you're attempting to redefine racism so that it entirely revolves around skin colour, but you've evidenced a shocking, borderline offensive ignorance of one of the worst forms of racism in the history of mankind.

  7. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostAnime View Post
    I don't know if you can call oppression against current day Jews racism in our world. Perhaps in the worlds Scammel was describing if they are easily visible, traceable, and it is directly systematic to their experiences.
    I guess homophobia also doesn't exist, because gay people can just hide that they're gay.
    Jackpot!

    I have a theory that the Pokémon world and the Mother world are one in the same. I won't go into spoilers for Mother 3, but think of Black and White's story of the dragon and the twins. Also, chimeras are kind of like Pokémon.

  8. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sadib View Post
    I guess homophobia also doesn't exist, because gay people can just hide that they're gay.
    I mean up until the 90's it was very common for gay people to hide it from everyone, including close family and friends. You did have black people in the 1800's pass themselves off as white if they were able to convincingly do it, but that required a ton of "lucky" factors lining up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by bobjr View Post
    I mean up until the 90's it was very common for gay people to hide it from everyone, including close family and friends. You did have black people in the 1800's pass themselves off as white if they were able to convincingly do it, but that required a ton of "lucky" factors lining up.
    "How can sexism exist when woman just pretend to be men?"
    Jackpot!

    I have a theory that the Pokémon world and the Mother world are one in the same. I won't go into spoilers for Mother 3, but think of Black and White's story of the dragon and the twins. Also, chimeras are kind of like Pokémon.

  10. #335
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    Are there a significant amount of women who pretend to be men to avoid discrimination and sexism?

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    Quote Originally Posted by bobjr View Post
    Are there a significant amount of women who pretend to be men to avoid discrimination and sexism?
    Maybe there should be.
    Jackpot!

    I have a theory that the Pokémon world and the Mother world are one in the same. I won't go into spoilers for Mother 3, but think of Black and White's story of the dragon and the twins. Also, chimeras are kind of like Pokémon.

  12. #337
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sadib View Post
    Are you denying (or at least minimizing) antisemitism in America?
    I am saying in present day in North America that it is not equivalent to the racism people of color face.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scammel View Post
    The sources only direct research stems from the 20th century.

    When you're talking about 1800s and early 20th century, they were not considered white. In other words, you're not really telling me anything I hadn't already said: the definition of whiteness changed at some point. The earlier you go, the more it was defined by status and how close to England you were. Many books quote this from people during those times https://theundefeated.com/features/w...nd-acceptable/

    It's not racism if you have to live in fear of ever having your identity discovered, if it's possible to hide at all. It's not racism if society at large thinks you are literally an animal, as long as you keep lying. It's not racism if you're forced to disavow your own culture for fear of vandalism or worse. Just don't wear Jewish clothes, guys.

    I mean, you're attempting to redefine racism so that it entirely revolves around skin colour, but you've evidenced a shocking, borderline offensive ignorance of one of the worst forms of racism in the history of mankind.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sadib View Post
    I guess homophobia also doesn't exist, because gay people can just hide that they're gay.
    The hell are you guys talking about? Sadib, we're talking about racism. Jews being considered a race is actually a debated topic. It doesn't take anything away from their oppression; merely what we classify them as.

    How we define race is mostly visual. If you can hide your race, why classify it as racism? Racism as a system works only through visual contact.

    I don't even know what you two are debating anymore at this point. Fear of being discovered? Society thinks you're an animal? I would kill to be an identity I could ****ing hide. Are you kidding me?

    If this is a debate about whether Jews should be considered a race, I'm not having it; but I will say this much: it is not comparable to racism for people of color. That is the only thing I will continue saying.
    Last edited by GhostAnime; 14th July 2017 at 6:57 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by chuboy View Post
    Quick, someone get the scientific community onto this one! A truly brilliant hypothesis that would have been insofar overlooked by every researcher who has contributed to this field of science. And it's only 8th grade stuff!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Zero
    I roam Johto with my partner Pokemon, Rattata, who knows Hyper Fang, Sunny Day, Rock Smash and Cut. Anyone who runs with more than one Pokemon or evolves their Pokemon takes the game way too seriously.

  13. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostAnime View Post
    I am saying in present day in North America that it is not equivalent to the racism people of color face.

    The hell are you guys talking about? Sadib, we're talking about racism. Jews being considered a race is actually a debated topic. It doesn't take anything away from their oppression; merely what we classify them as.

    How we define race is mostly visual. If you can hide your race, why classify it as racism? Racism as a system works only through visual contact.

    I don't even know what you two are debating anymore at this point. Fear of being discovered? Society thinks you're an animal? I would kill to be an identity I could ****ing hide. Are you kidding me?

    If this is a debate about whether Jews should be considered a race, I'm not having it; but I will say this much: it is not comparable to racism for people of color. That is the only thing I will continue saying.
    White privilege is the assumption that white people can't empathize the hardships of people of color. There should be a phrase for the type of privilege non-Jewish people have.
    Here's are some articles that might be useful:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_an...#United_States
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antise...ews_in_the_U.S.

    This topic is also about sexism. Women can disguise themselves as men. I've met quite a few androgynous women.
    Last edited by Sadib; 14th July 2017 at 9:07 AM.
    Jackpot!

    I have a theory that the Pokémon world and the Mother world are one in the same. I won't go into spoilers for Mother 3, but think of Black and White's story of the dragon and the twins. Also, chimeras are kind of like Pokémon.

  14. #339
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    Worth considering: exceptions don't disprove the rule.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostAnime View Post
    a 3DS debater. nice.

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    There should be a phrase for the type of privilege non-Jewish people have.
    but the privilege is based on having white skin. "jew" isn't necessarily synonymous with white (although arguably most Jews are white-passing, it's still not technically synonymous)

    the problem with creating such a phrase is that Jew is a category outside of skin color.

    anyway we already kinda have a phrase/category specifically for the oppression of Jews. You linked us to it, but are you still trying to saying their oppression is comparable to poc at least in North America? I'm still not sure what you're arguing.
    Quote Originally Posted by chuboy View Post
    Quick, someone get the scientific community onto this one! A truly brilliant hypothesis that would have been insofar overlooked by every researcher who has contributed to this field of science. And it's only 8th grade stuff!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Zero
    I roam Johto with my partner Pokemon, Rattata, who knows Hyper Fang, Sunny Day, Rock Smash and Cut. Anyone who runs with more than one Pokemon or evolves their Pokemon takes the game way too seriously.

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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostAnime View Post
    but the privilege is based on having white skin. "jew" isn't necessarily synonymous with white (although arguably most Jews are white-passing, it's still not technically synonymous)

    the problem with creating such a phrase is that Jew is a category outside of skin color.

    anyway we already kinda have a phrase/category specifically for the oppression of Jews. You linked us to it, but are you still trying to saying their oppression is comparable to poc at least in North America? I'm still not sure what you're arguing.
    You think racism is only about color? That's colorism. I don't know if Jews suffer antisemitism to the same capacity that poc suffer racist, but so what? Why are you trying to minimize suffering? That's exactly what you're doing with these redefinitions.
    Jackpot!

    I have a theory that the Pokémon world and the Mother world are one in the same. I won't go into spoilers for Mother 3, but think of Black and White's story of the dragon and the twins. Also, chimeras are kind of like Pokémon.

  17. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sadib View Post
    You think racism is only about color? That's colorism. I don't know if Jews suffer antisemitism to the same capacity that poc suffer racist, but so what? Why are you trying to minimize suffering? That's exactly what you're doing with these redefinitions.
    Jewish people don't have to deal with the baggage and negative stigma and stereotypes that society pushes onto them based on their identities. Jews are one of the most well-liked religious groups in America.

    http://www.pewforum.org/2017/02/15/a...igious-groups/

    The Jewish American experience is practically alien to the African American experience. Stop conflating them.

  18. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sadib View Post
    You think racism is only about color? That's colorism.
    Actually, colorism is more about shade and it's based on skin color only. There is colorism even within poc for example.


    I don't know if Jews suffer antisemitism to the same capacity that poc suffer racist, but so what? Why are you trying to minimize suffering? That's exactly what you're doing with these redefinitions.
    But it's not even clear if Jews are considered a race. Your original statement was that white privilege needs to be done away with because there are white people who are oppressed; but that doesn't remove the fact that they are also privileged for having white skin.

    White women are oppressed by white men but still have white privilege. Same with white-passing Jews.

    It's hard to truly classify Jews as a race because there really isn't a specific "Jew" look, and a lot of what they go through isn't systematic in the sense of poc who normally go through racism in multiple ways (schools, police, media...). Jews, at least in America, are actually associated with wealth.

    It's just.. a very complex category. It never really "fits" with anything. It's simply its own classification and system of oppression. Of course, this is my view, and an actual Jewish person may feel different (do we have anyone here?), but it's not universally agreed that Jews are considered a race.
    Quote Originally Posted by chuboy View Post
    Quick, someone get the scientific community onto this one! A truly brilliant hypothesis that would have been insofar overlooked by every researcher who has contributed to this field of science. And it's only 8th grade stuff!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Zero
    I roam Johto with my partner Pokemon, Rattata, who knows Hyper Fang, Sunny Day, Rock Smash and Cut. Anyone who runs with more than one Pokemon or evolves their Pokemon takes the game way too seriously.

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