Page 11 of 15 FirstFirst ... 789101112131415 LastLast
Results 251 to 275 of 352

Thread: Prejudice Plus Power and Racism and Sexism

  1. #251
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    9,366

    Default

    We know differences are mainly caused by hormones, and what happens at puberty? You get more hormones.
    Still a weak connection. What about culture? What about individual differences in mental preferences? We have proof that we can examine men of different time periods and cultures have different ideas of masculinity. We see some countries have men who tend to be more violent, more "feminine", more blue-collar, more intellectual, etc. yet, I'm pretty sure we all contain the same genetics for the most part as men.

    The only reason why a person would not express his genetic predispositions is if he/she were socially conditioned to do otherwise.
    The only reason? the only reason? do you hear yourself right now? you just basically said "the only way a man or woman acts outside of genetics is if they were socially influenced to."

    Listen, I understand science is a very important subject and way of learning, but this is just too cut and dry even for you. You leave zero room for nuance and you're not thinking like a real scientist at all. Science, especially when it comes to something as complex as the human mind, isn't just "This is the only answer/reason/explanation."

    If you ask me why 75% of NBA players are black, I would say that's primarily a genetic difference.
    Then what's stopping them from becoming hockey players? golfers? soccer players? don't tell me having excellent traits in running and jumping couldn't possibly translate to anything else.
    Quote Originally Posted by chuboy View Post
    Quick, someone get the scientific community onto this one! A truly brilliant hypothesis that would have been insofar overlooked by every researcher who has contributed to this field of science. And it's only 8th grade stuff!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Zero
    I roam Johto with my partner Pokemon, Rattata, who knows Hyper Fang, Sunny Day, Rock Smash and Cut. Anyone who runs with more than one Pokemon or evolves their Pokemon takes the game way too seriously.

  2. #252
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    3,431

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by snorlax512 View Post
    Your argument is basically "If you don't count the areas where it is useful, it isn't useful, therefore the distinction between biological sexes is primitive." This just... doesn't make sense.

    Besides, you're forgetting language again. Most categorisations are much less concrete, and have much less utility than biological sex, yet they exist. Why? Simple, because we need to communicate.


    This is a non-sequitur.

    Just because we can say "you're biologically male" and "you're biologically female" doesn't mean that we can say "you're biologically male, therefore you have to do this". It just doesn't follow.


    Really? Then why is that when we give rhesus monkeys human toys to play with, the males gravitate towards the "masculine" toys, while the females gravitate towards "feminine toys"? Did their papa monkeys somehow tell them trucks are for boys too?

    If you think our gender is whatever society pushes onto us, look up David Reimer.

    Reimer was a boy whose penis was destroyed in a botched circumcision. The doctors advised the parents to remove his testes, surgically construct a vagina, and raise him as a girl.

    "Brenda" grew up as girl, and was taught to wear dresses and playing with dolls. Your gender is simply whatever society pushes onto you, right? No. By the age of 13, Brenda began to act masculine and reject her female identity.

    She was suffering from such bad depression that her parents finally told her the truth, and she took up a male identity again. Reimer ultimately committed suicide because of this.


    We have a different understanding of gender.

    I don't believe gender is your personality. A tomboy, whose behaviour is more masculine than feminine, can identify as a female. She can be perfectly content with her identity as a woman.

    Gender is the one's internal sense of self, and determined by biology. It comes from the brain, which is affected by the hormones you produce, which stems from the genes you have.
    why is it so hard for you to evolve your way of thinking? You don't win any debates by just ignoring new studies over and over and ignoring the people who actually are involved with this stuff. You do a lot of pointless semantic debating also while ignoring the bigger picture.
    Also these kind of beliefs you have ACTUALLY HURT PEOPLE in society. Why are you so hung up on your own logic instead of actually keeping an open mind and learning new things about people?

    "I don't trust any of these people who all claim to be going through issues in real life regarding to gender and sexual identification... I'll study monkeys instead to prove theyre all mentally disabled liars!" thats what your arguments sound like lol.

    You're understanding of this stuff is reminding me of someone who lacks a personality or emotions, whatever that condition is called. (not dissing that condition, it's just hard to debate them when they're stuck on their ideas)

  3. #253
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    9,366

    Default

    "I don't trust any of these people who all claim to be going through issues in real life regarding to gender and sexual identification... I'll study monkeys instead to prove theyre all mentally disabled liars!"
    perfect summary of this entire topic.

    real life nuances? nah i prefer reading about monkeys.
    Quote Originally Posted by chuboy View Post
    Quick, someone get the scientific community onto this one! A truly brilliant hypothesis that would have been insofar overlooked by every researcher who has contributed to this field of science. And it's only 8th grade stuff!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Zero
    I roam Johto with my partner Pokemon, Rattata, who knows Hyper Fang, Sunny Day, Rock Smash and Cut. Anyone who runs with more than one Pokemon or evolves their Pokemon takes the game way too seriously.

  4. #254
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    where u arent
    Posts
    436

    Default

    Ball and Cooking Pot.

    A sample of 101 isn't much, and I'd like to see verification of the results.
    i claimed zoroark

    Quote Originally Posted by GhostAnime View Post
    a 3DS debater. nice.
    Why are you still not BANNED after calling an other user a MORON?
    Next time look for the information yourself, lil' miss Antifa.

  5. #255
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    685

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by chess-z View Post
    Quoted for posterity. This is just about the stupid thing I've ever seen get said. Imagine actually believing this.
    Really? How do you explain that girls born with congenital adrenal hyperplasia (increased levels of male hormones) exhibit preferences for "masculine" toys?

    Quote Originally Posted by lemoncatpower View Post
    why is it so hard for you to evolve your way of thinking? You don't win any debates by just ignoring new studies over and over and ignoring the people who actually are involved with this stuff. You do a lot of pointless semantic debating also while ignoring the bigger picture.
    Also these kind of beliefs you have ACTUALLY HURT PEOPLE in society. Why are you so hung up on your own logic instead of actually keeping an open mind and learning new things about people?

    "I don't trust any of these people who all claim to be going through issues in real life regarding to gender and sexual identification... I'll study monkeys instead to prove theyre all mentally disabled liars!" thats what your arguments sound like lol.

    You're understanding of this stuff is reminding me of someone who lacks a personality or emotions, whatever that condition is called. (not dissing that condition, it's just hard to debate them when they're stuck on their ideas)
    This is pretty much three paragraphs of complete strawmans followed by an appeal to emotion, without addressing any of my points, or refuting any studies I provided.

    If the belief that recognising utility in distinguishing between the sexes, and that sex differences have a root in biology is somehow ruining people's lives, then there is no point of having this debate any further.

    Quote Originally Posted by GhostAnime View Post
    Still a weak connection. What about culture? What about individual differences in mental preferences? We have proof that we can examine men of different time periods and cultures have different ideas of masculinity. We see some countries have men who tend to be more violent, more "feminine", more blue-collar, more intellectual, etc. yet, I'm pretty sure we all contain the same genetics for the most part as men.
    When there are studies done on infants and primate preferences, effects on sex hormones on behaviour that suggest a biological root in sex differences, "still a weak link" is not good enough a counterargument. I also never said that culture has zero influence on gender behaviour.

    Quote Originally Posted by GhostAnime View Post
    The only reason? the only reason? do you hear yourself right now? you just basically said "the only way a man or woman acts outside of genetics is if they were socially influenced to."

    Listen, I understand science is a very important subject and way of learning, but this is just too cut and dry even for you. You leave zero room for nuance and you're not thinking like a real scientist at all. Science, especially when it comes to something as complex as the human mind, isn't just "This is the only answer/reason/explanation."
    Yes. What other factor is there other than nature and nurture?

    Quote Originally Posted by GhostAnime View Post
    Then what's stopping them from becoming hockey players? golfers? soccer players? don't tell me having excellent traits in running and jumping couldn't possibly translate to anything else.
    Blacks are quite good at soccer. Basketball is just a prime example because being tall is such a huge advantage, but you will that find in most athletic sports, blacks will be superior to say, asians. Physicality isn't that much an edge in sports like golf (not too sure about hockey), where technique is much more importnat
    Last edited by snorlax512; 19th May 2017 at 6:55 PM.

  6. #256
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    *sigh* Ohio
    Posts
    7,834

    Default

    Then why do things like Soccer have no clear dominance. Plus last time I checked foreign players were getting more and more active in the NBA. I always thought it's because more black children played basketball, so you just have that headstart. Most pro athletes start fairly young, to the point where it's kind of hard to catch up if you just start a sport in high school. Also most sports require a lot of technique, otherwise pure muscle mass would just dominate and as we see that's not the case.

    Plus I wouldn't use blacks. I'm no expert on that, but I've heard that's not exactly the best phrasing to use.

  7. #257
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Pre-Crisis Earth-Two
    Posts
    2,351

    Default

    Why are we talking about genders in this thread. Can't you all do that somewhere else? I want to talk about how racism and sexism do not need a power component in their definition.
    Jackpot!

    I have a theory that the Pokémon world and the Mother world are one in the same. I won't go into spoilers for Mother 3, but think of Black and White's story of the dragon and the twins. Also, chimeras are kind of like Pokémon.

  8. #258
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    299

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by chess-z View Post
    Ball and Cooking Pot.
    Selective much? 'The toys used in the study were a doll, a pink teddy bear and a cooking pot for girls, while for boys a car, a blue teddy, a digger and a ball were used.'

    Other literature that might prove useful:

    https://link.springer.com/article/10...A1021833110722 - 'Preferences for objects such as toys may indicate a biological preparedness for a “masculine” or “feminine” gender role'

    https://link.springer.com/article/10...508-008-9430-1 - 'Our findings suggest that the conceptual categories of “masculine” and “feminine” toys are preceded by sex differences in the preferences for perceptual features associated with such (toys)'

    http://www.indiana.edu/~cogdev/labwork/toychoice.pdf - 'This (toy choice) is in line with the idea of a biological predisposition to certain behaviour'

    Quoted for posterity indeed.

  9. #259
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Lost as **** tbh
    Posts
    399

    Default

    Here is the issue with these studies, though. We know for a fact that what is percieved as being masculine or as being feminine is subject to change. For example, high heels. If you're going to argue that gender expression is purely biological, you would need to explain how the brain codes objects as being masculine or feminine.

    In the grand scheme of things, these baby toy studies at most suggest biology has a little something to do with gender expression (A point I've never seriously contested) but comes nowhere close to suggesting that it's mostly or only that.

    Why are we talking about genders in this thread. Can't you all do that somewhere else? I want to talk about how racism and sexism do not need a power component in their definition.
    I'm assuming we haven't been riegned in yet because

    1) The prejudice + power debate was growing tiresome and was on the verge of going in circles.
    2) Take a look around. There's three threads in this forum, maybe four. The fact that there is debate of any kind going on should be a good thing.
    3) It's a pretty interesting conversation as far as derails are concerned.

    If you want to talk about the prejudice + power defintion so badly, you should say something that someone else hasn't already said and we might return to it. Or, you could neatly condense the arguments presented on both sides. There were lots of thoughts tossed around. It might make the subject less of a pain in the *** than immediately picking up after the end of a long exchange.
    Last edited by Baba Yaga; 19th May 2017 at 8:37 PM.

  10. #260
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    299

    Default

    In the grand scheme of things, these baby toy studies at most suggest biology has a little something to do with gender expression (A point I've never seriously contested)
    Oh, absolutely (and the range of toys that young children naturally opt for on the basis of gender is apparently quite narrow, which is very interesting), I'm simply disputing the notion that

    This is just about the stupid thing I've ever seen get said.

  11. #261
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Lost as **** tbh
    Posts
    399

    Default

    Blacks are quite good at soccer.
    Quoted for posterity.

    And don't worry Scammel, my point was directed toward Snorlax, who seems to be arguing that gender expression is primarily if not purely biological.
    Last edited by Baba Yaga; 19th May 2017 at 8:43 PM.

  12. #262
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    685

    Default

    I've mentioned this multiple times, but if the studies on hormonal effects/infant behaviour isn't 'solid' enough, look up the case of David Reimer.

  13. #263
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Location
    Lost as **** tbh
    Posts
    399

    Default

    But if David Reimer had grown up in a different society, his gender expression as a male would be different. For example, there's a tribe in Saudi Arabia where the men wear pretty flower crowns, which is something most Western countries wouldn't recognize as being particularly masculine.

    Quoting GA once again:

    Still a weak connection. What about culture? What about individual differences in mental preferences? We have proof that we can examine men of different time periods and cultures have different ideas of masculinity. We see some countries have men who tend to be more violent, more "feminine", more blue-collar, more intellectual, etc. yet, I'm pretty sure we all contain the same genetics for the most part as men.
    This is where the argument that gender is mostly biological starts to look very weak. If it is, we shouldn't be seeing this kind of wide variance.
    Last edited by Baba Yaga; 19th May 2017 at 10:11 PM.

  14. #264
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    3,431

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by snorlax512 View Post
    I've mentioned this multiple times, but if the studies on hormonal effects/infant behaviour isn't 'solid' enough, look up the case of David Reimer.
    Your example with David Reimer is not sound whatsoever.

    http://www.slate.com/articles/health...ender_gap.html
    read that please and tell me that his suicide was SOLELY because he underwent surgery.

    "Anyone familiar with David's life—as a baby, after a botched circumcision, he underwent an operation to change him from boy to girl—would have understood that the real mystery was how he managed to stay alive for 38 years, given the physical and mental torments he suffered in childhood and that haunted him the rest of his life. I'd argue that a less courageous person than David would have put an end to things long ago."

    Do you understand that not only was his surgery was forced onto him, his parents wanted him to have normal HETEROSEXUAL sex, that means "brenda" would have had to be gay also when she was a male. If you don't understand the damaging effects of being forced to be something you're not. David Reimer was born a biological male interested in women. Not to mention, his mother tried to commmit suicide, dad was an alcoholic, and twin brother died two years before his suicide.

    oh and this part is important to highlight:
    "Genetics almost certainly contributed to David's suicide. His mother has been a clinical depressive all her life; his brother suffered from the same disease. How much of the Reimers' misery was due to inherited depression, and how much to the nightmare circumstances into which they had been thrown? David's mutilation and his parents' guilt were tightly entwined, multiplying the mental anguish to which the family members were already prone."
    Last edited by lemoncatpower; 19th May 2017 at 9:49 PM.

  15. #265
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    *sigh* Ohio
    Posts
    7,834

    Default

    Pink used to be a masculine color and blue a feminine one as well.

  16. #266
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    685

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by lemoncatpower View Post
    Your example with David Reimer is not sound whatsoever.

    http://www.slate.com/articles/health...ender_gap.html
    read that please and tell me that his suicide was SOLELY because he underwent surgery.

    "Anyone familiar with David's life—as a baby, after a botched circumcision, he underwent an operation to change him from boy to girl—would have understood that the real mystery was how he managed to stay alive for 38 years, given the physical and mental torments he suffered in childhood and that haunted him the rest of his life. I'd argue that a less courageous person than David would have put an end to things long ago."

    Do you understand that not only was his surgery was forced onto him, his parents wanted him to have normal HETEROSEXUAL sex, that means "brenda" would have had to be gay also when she was a male. If you don't understand the damaging effects of being forced to be something you're not. David Reimer was born a biological male interested in women. Not to mention, his mother tried to commmit suicide, dad was an alcoholic, and twin brother died two years before his suicide.

    oh and this part is important to highlight:
    "Genetics almost certainly contributed to David's suicide. His mother has been a clinical depressive all her life; his brother suffered from the same disease. How much of the Reimers' misery was due to inherited depression, and how much to the nightmare circumstances into which they had been thrown? David's mutilation and his parents' guilt were tightly entwined, multiplying the mental anguish to which the family members were already prone."
    The suicide isn't the crux of the story. The fact that he was raised a girl, given dresses and dolls, surgically constructed a vagina wasn't enough to shape his gender identity and expression as one, is enough to completely refute your ideas that girls play with barbie dolls and identify as females because society tells them to.

  17. #267
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    9,366

    Default

    In the grand scheme of things, these baby toy studies at most suggest biology has a little something to do with gender expression (A point I've never seriously contested) but comes nowhere close to suggesting that it's mostly or only that.
    That is pretty much my ultimate point. How much do they really matter in the grand scheme of things?

    If you point out that young male babies like cars and young female babies like dolls, how much of that really has to do with how they'll end up later in life? how many of those young male babies ended up being stereotypically masculine and vice-versa? what culture did they grow up in? how much of it was genetics related to something else entirely?

    if we ever want to measure how much is it between nature/nurture, we'll only find out by removing societal forces; however, what we do know is that not all men in the world carry the same exact ideas of masculinity. there are hundreds of cultures and regions of men turning out to be the exact opposite of what their supposed genes and ancestors guide them to do. what is the most likely factor for these variances and differences? arguing race and nationality would be eugenics.

    unleash yourself from these chains of genetics and gender. acknowledge the nuance that is of human beings. there are so many other things which go into who we end up being besides genetics; we already know this when we look at twin studies. genetics are not enough.
    Quote Originally Posted by chuboy View Post
    Quick, someone get the scientific community onto this one! A truly brilliant hypothesis that would have been insofar overlooked by every researcher who has contributed to this field of science. And it's only 8th grade stuff!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Zero
    I roam Johto with my partner Pokemon, Rattata, who knows Hyper Fang, Sunny Day, Rock Smash and Cut. Anyone who runs with more than one Pokemon or evolves their Pokemon takes the game way too seriously.

  18. #268
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    685

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bobjr View Post
    Pink used to be a masculine color and blue a feminine one as well.
    There are aspects of gender norms which are socially constructed, and colours are one of them. Blue and pink are merely symbols for masculinity and femininity, and they can be flipped at any time.

    When I'm talking about gender expression, I'm referring to the innate behaviour differences - hormones such as androgen may cause infants to be predisposed to certain things (e.g. trucks as opposed to dolls). When companies make masculine toys blue and feminine toys pink, girls who play with these pink dolls will begin to associate the colour pink to femininity. That does not mean pink and blue are intrinsically linked to gender differences.

    @Baba yaga, the same stands for flowers. These are symbols that reflect masculinity and femininity, and nothing to do with the innate aspects of gender. For example, you will find the fact that men tend to commit most violent crimes holds true for virtually all cultures and societies.

    Quote Originally Posted by GhostAnime View Post
    That is pretty much my ultimate point. How much do they really matter in the grand scheme of things?
    Well, look at David Reimer.
    Last edited by snorlax512; 20th May 2017 at 1:01 AM.

  19. #269
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    9,366

    Default

    Okay? And look at the thousands of people in LBGT who have suicided DUE to the expectations they felt they could not meet. Look at the ones who've been murdered. What is your point?
    Quote Originally Posted by chuboy View Post
    Quick, someone get the scientific community onto this one! A truly brilliant hypothesis that would have been insofar overlooked by every researcher who has contributed to this field of science. And it's only 8th grade stuff!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Zero
    I roam Johto with my partner Pokemon, Rattata, who knows Hyper Fang, Sunny Day, Rock Smash and Cut. Anyone who runs with more than one Pokemon or evolves their Pokemon takes the game way too seriously.

  20. #270
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    685

    Default

    We both agree that it's a mixture of nature and nurture, right? Where we disagree is which one has the bigger influence.

    Reimer was socially conditioned to be a girl in every way possible. He had his testes removed, surgically constructed a vagina, was given dolls and dresses to play with, and had female hormones injected into her. He was also the perfect control, because he had an identical twin brother who identified as a male. Guess what? It didn't triumph Reimer's genetic predisposition. When puberty kicked in, he began to act more and more masculine, and never identified as a girl.

    How can you say nature has little to do with your gender?

  21. #271
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Pre-Crisis Earth-Two
    Posts
    2,351

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by snorlax512 View Post
    We both agree that it's a mixture of nature and nurture, right? Where we disagree is which one has the bigger influence.

    Reimer was socially conditioned to be a girl in every way possible. He had his testes removed, surgically constructed a vagina, was given dolls and dresses to play with, and had female hormones injected into her. He was also the perfect control, because he had an identical twin brother who identified as a male. Guess what? It didn't triumph Reimer's genetic predisposition. When puberty kicked in, he began to act more and more masculine, and never identified as a girl.

    How can you say nature has little to do with your gender?
    Who's saying that nature has little to do with your gender? That's quite silly.
    Jackpot!

    I have a theory that the Pokémon world and the Mother world are one in the same. I won't go into spoilers for Mother 3, but think of Black and White's story of the dragon and the twins. Also, chimeras are kind of like Pokémon.

  22. #272
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    9,366

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by snorlax512 View Post
    We both agree that it's a mixture of nature and nurture, right? Where we disagree is which one has the bigger influence.

    Reimer was socially conditioned to be a girl in every way possible. He had his testes removed, surgically constructed a vagina, was given dolls and dresses to play with, and had female hormones injected into her. He was also the perfect control, because he had an identical twin brother who identified as a male. Guess what? It didn't triumph Reimer's genetic predisposition. When puberty kicked in, he began to act more and more masculine, and never identified as a girl.

    How can you say nature has little to do with your gender?
    you are still ignoring the countless other examples of the very opposite thing. you're focusing entirely on one experience. here, you have actual transgender people telling you wtf they're going through and for whatever reason, you feel sympathy for the only case that may even point to your direction slightly.
    Quote Originally Posted by chuboy View Post
    Quick, someone get the scientific community onto this one! A truly brilliant hypothesis that would have been insofar overlooked by every researcher who has contributed to this field of science. And it's only 8th grade stuff!
    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Zero
    I roam Johto with my partner Pokemon, Rattata, who knows Hyper Fang, Sunny Day, Rock Smash and Cut. Anyone who runs with more than one Pokemon or evolves their Pokemon takes the game way too seriously.

  23. #273
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    *sigh* Ohio
    Posts
    7,834

    Default

    If you look you'll always find someone of a group willing to "sell out" and pull something like "Racism/sexism doesn't exist" as a message, so they can tout that person as an example, even if it's only one person who's probably in it for money or attention. Look at the Ben Carsons, the Milo's(Though if he's actually gay or not is up for debate) who just kind of exist as a "Oh this person gets it why won't the rest of them".

  24. #274
    Join Date
    Feb 2013
    Location
    NC
    Posts
    494

    Default

    To get back to the definition of racism...

    Racism and/or bigotry: Do the components of these evolve as their own social constructs while racism and bigotry maintain that status, or, since race, religion/atheism, politics, ethnicity and gender being biological-social construct hybrids that depend on the individual in an enviroment, did racism and bigotry always coexist with such and thus are they ingrained enough to escape the construct format due to them being an automatic human response to social constructs?
    Here's hoping for Shiny Tapu Bulu, Tapu Lele, and Tapu Fini events that come stateside. Also, why can't there be more rare Vivillon pattern events?!

  25. #275
    Join Date
    Oct 2016
    Posts
    685

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by GhostAnime View Post
    you are still ignoring the countless other examples of the very opposite thing. you're focusing entirely on one experience. here, you have actual transgender people telling you wtf they're going through and for whatever reason, you feel sympathy for the only case that may even point to your direction slightly.
    Please explain how the existence of transgender people disproves that gender is not mostly innate.
    Last edited by snorlax512; 20th May 2017 at 2:00 PM.

Page 11 of 15 FirstFirst ... 789101112131415 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •