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Thread: Community POTW #025

  1. #1
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    Default Community POTW #025

    Time for the next Pokémon, and this week we have a regional bird



    It's Staraptor!

    http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-sm/398.shtml

    Go nuts

  2. #2

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    Yes! One of my favorites!
    Ability:
    Intimidate: Lowers opponent's attack by one stage when Staraptor first enters. Not a bad ability, but it has a much better one.
    Hidden Ability:
    Reckless: Recoil moves have their power and recoil damage increased. Combined with Brave Bird and Double Edge, this ability is a must.
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  3. #3
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    Staraptor is on of the fun Pokémon I really want to test out later. With Base 100 Speed, it already outspeeds many of the Pokémon introduced in Alola. 120 Base Attack is also incredible, with access to Close Combat to counter Ice and Rock types that plague all Regional Birds. But with access to the Z-Mirror Move, this bird doubles its attack and becomes a juggernaut! If you're not running a Z-Crystal Pokémon on your team yet, choose this over a Choice Band.

    For competitive, I'd run Reckless, Flyinium-Z with Protect/Agility, Z-Mirror Move, Close Combat, and Brave Bird (or Aerial Ace if it's Intimidate). Protect allows you to survive hits from slower Pokémon, insuring a safe Z-Mirror Move, while Agility gets the speed boosted to past switch-ins like Ice Beam Pheromosa. Brave Bird is STAB, Aerial Ace is for Mini-Muk, and Close Combat coverage. Also, after using Z-Mirror Move,
    (Protect) Mirror Move can still punish opponents who try to use a move they themselves are weak to, such as Garchomp with Dragon Claw, or Mega-Aerodactyle's Rock Slide. Jolly with 252 EVs in Speed beats uninvested, Jolly/Timid Pokemon with Base 131 Speed. After Z-Mirror Move, 4 EV Attack Brave Bird can 115% KO uninvested HP/Def Garchomp, which is 108 HP and 95 Defense, so any mix of HP and Attack EVs are up to you. But if you go with Adamant Nature and use Agility once, 60 EVs in Speed will outpace even a fully invested Timid Deoxys-Speed, and any other EVs can be put into Attack and HP at your discretion.

    Gimmick sets I'd like to test out...
    Choice Scarf. Even without +2 Attack, base 120 still hits hard, and the Scarf allows you to outspend most threats like Tapu Koko. Also, a Scarf Final Gambit may not knock everything out with its Base 85 HP (but it can take out uninvested 117 HP), but it opens up KO's for teammates with Moxie, Soul Heart, Battle Bond, and Beast Boost.
    For sets not running Z-Mirror Move, U-Turn would make a great pivot.
    Double-Edge is another strong STAB for Reckless.
    Foresight can make both a Normal STAB and Close Combat have perfect neutral coverage.
    Last edited by Local Maple; 15th May 2017 at 9:16 PM. Reason: Added EV numbers.

  4. #4
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    Stopping Staraptor

    Gen IV got many things right, including one of the best regional birds ever released in Staraptor (only Talonflame truly outshined it, but Gale Wings got nerfed). Intimidate give Staraptor a surprising amount of physical bulk, an access to Close Combat means Staraptor has an effective tool to threaten the Rock and Steel types that are normally the bane of Normal Flying pokemon.

    However, not everything is sunshine and rainbows for one of our favorite murder birds. Staraptor's possesses a crippling weakness to Stealth Rock. While 1/4 of your HP isn't as bad as 1/2, that combined with Staraptor's prevalence for recoil moves like Brave Bird and Double Edge, means that Staraptor will KO itself sooner rather than later. Close Combat, while providing great coverage, is NOT boosted by Reckless and due to the high DEF (and access to Sturdy) of most Steel and Rock types means that Staraptor is often vulnerable to be KO'd back from the (admittedly maimed) Rock and/or Steel type. Doublade utterly counters any Staraptor set not carrying Foresight + Close Combat, taking mere pittance from Brave Bird and will 2HKO. Skarmory also walls Staraptor hard (Defensive investment is a MUST for Reckless banded sets), but due to its lower Base HP means that Final Gambit will do severe damage if not KO after prior damage.

    Additionally, Staraptor has no answer for powerful special attackers, as 70/60 Special bulk is fairly poor, and it has no method to patch it up outside of Captivate. Mega Manectric, Thunderus, Tornadus, Lati@s, can all easily outspeed and OHKO it with their STABs (again watch out for Scarf sets who can turn the tables). Priority like always makes Staraptor easy to pick off after its hurt itself, but by that point it likely has already torn a few holes in your team. Trick Room is also amazing against Staraptor, but the problem is surviving the initial hit. Defensive Slowbro can take a hit (75% from Banded Reckless Brave Bird/Double Edge) and setup Trick Room. High HP tanks are also the bane of Staraptor's existance and will often cause it to kill itself with its own recoil (or pointlessly sacrifice itself with Final Gambit)... though they will often not survive the hit themselves, or will be horribly maimed.
    Last edited by Mestorn; 15th May 2017 at 12:54 AM.
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    Oh how I wish Staraptor would be allowed in VGC this year, but alas it is not found in Alola. In VGC 14 however, it had some viability with Intimidate and Final Gambit. I remember Mark McQuillan used a Choice Scarf Staraptor to make it to finals in the Seniors Division that year. Reckless seems to be a better choice for singles in conjunction with Double-Edge and Brave Bird. I haven't tested it too much but I would imagine the two aforementioned moves, Close Combat, Final Gambit, Quick Attack, and U-Turn just about sum up its useful moves. In Monotype it could be used on Normal teams along with Chansey and Porygon2 for defensive cores with Leftovers and Roost.

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    In gen 6 I ran a banded reckless set focusing on all out offense but now in gen 7 I imagine the singles set is something like this:

    Staraptor
    @Flynium Z
    Reckless
    Jolly
    252/252 Spd + Atk 4 HP
    ~Brave Bird
    ~Close Combat
    ~Double Edge
    ~Quick Attack/U-Turn

    I dont know what this Z mirror move is but flying offense crystal is still powerful and then you got your required coverage to hit most things with the freedom to switch attacks. You can then fire of a last ditch quick attack before you die.

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  7. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Fighting View Post
    In gen 6 I ran a banded reckless set focusing on all out offense but now in gen 7 I imagine the singles set is something like this:

    Staraptor
    @Flynium Z
    Reckless
    Jolly
    252/252 Spd + Atk 4 HP
    ~Brave Bird
    ~Close Combat
    ~Double Edge
    ~Quick Attack/U-Turn

    I dont know what this Z mirror move is but flying offense crystal is still powerful and then you got your required coverage to hit most things with the freedom to switch attacks. You can then fire of a last ditch quick attack before you die.
    Z Mirror Move boosts the user's attack by 2 stages, and then uses the z-move of whatever what just used by the opposing Pokémon. So if say a Mega Gyarados just used Earthquake the previous turn, Staraptor's Z-Mirror Move attacks with a +2 Tectonic Rage. Pretty cool if you can successfully use it, and definitely something to consider with Staraptor (especially since if it isn't a good situation to use it, you can still use your z move with Brave Bird).
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  8. #8
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    Staraptor @ Choice Band
    Ability: Reckless
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Adamant/Jolly Nature
    - Brave Bird
    - Double-Edge
    - Close Combat
    - U-turn

    I think we have to include a Choice Band set, I mean Reckless + Dual Stabs and Choice Band is pretty powerful and hard to switch in to which I think holds more viability than a Z-Move sets.

    Also a mention to a choice scarf as an OO but it doesn't have the continued power as a Band set would have.
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  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by EKZ1505 View Post
    Z Mirror Move boosts the user's attack by 2 stages, and then uses the z-move of whatever what just used by the opposing Pokémon. So if say a Mega Gyarados just used Earthquake the previous turn, Staraptor's Z-Mirror Move attacks with a +2 Tectonic Rage. Pretty cool if you can successfully use it, and definitely something to consider with Staraptor (especially since if it isn't a good situation to use it, you can still use your z move with Brave Bird).
    Raptor isn't the best mon for Z-Mirror Move. Physical attackers will generally switch out due to intimidate so Staraptor will usually copy a z special move. And reckless variants aren't fast or bulky enough to revenge kill with it against most things. Banded or tailwind attacker sets tend to work better. I've had some fun with this variant before though:

    Staraptor @ Aguav Berry
    Ability: Intimidate
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Tailwind
    - Brave Bird
    - Double-Edge
    - Close Combat
    Tailwind gets up tailwind after intimidate encourages the opponent to switch. Staraptor then takes out whatever it can in those 4 turns and even if it dies you might still have a turn of tailwind left for whatever you have in the back. Then again, in most metas where Staraptor is allowed, you're also allowed Tornadus so I haven't used it much.

  10. #10
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    Hawk And Roll
    Staraptor@Flyinium Z
    Jolly nature
    Reckless
    252 Attack/252 Speed/4 HP
    ~Brave Bird
    ~Double-Edge
    ~Close Combat
    ~Mirror Move

    Staraptor is perhaps the best recipient of Reckless known to man or Mankey. Brave Bird and Double-Edge- hard to go wrong with STAB moves like that! Close Combat is powerful coverage with little to no drawback, considering the defense drops aren't gonna matter much to something like Staraptor anyway. And Mirror Move is to be used with the Flyinium Z. Z-Mirror Move is basically a free Swords Dance, mixed with the Z-Move version of the last move the target used. Awesome stuff.

    Item lets Z-Mirror Move happen. Ability powers up those STAB moves.


    Other options:
    *Staraptor is fast, but not the fastest. It could benefit from some priority, and hey, look- STAB Quick Attack.
    *U-turn works well with choice items.
    *Staraptor does get Agility, so it could go with that to bolster its Speed.
    *Must also mention Pursuit.

    Abilities:
    *Intimidate: When Staraptor enters battle, its opponent's Attack is lowered by 1 stage. In doubles, both opponents lose attack power. A good Ability in and of itself, and indeed, before the days of Hidden Abilities, Staraptor wasn't considered to be too bad off in the Ability department. That being said...
    *Reckless: Staraptor's Hidden Ability. Staraptor's recoil moves are 20% more powerful than usual. It would also power up any moves with crash damage (basically Jump Kick and High Jump Kick), if Staraptor actually learned any of those. It does not power up Struggle. But yes- this is the Ability you want on Staraptor. It gets STAB on both Brave Bird and Double-Edge. Both moves are powerful with STAB in any case, but throw in Reckless, and that's bordering on overkill right there. You want this Ability on your Staraptor, end of story.

    Partners:
    Staraptor wants to get in there and OHKO all the stuff it possibly can, so stuff like Stealth Rock support wouldn't go amiss. It also wants to outspeed all it possibly can, so Tailwind support, Smashpass support, Speed Boost pass support, Sticky Web support- however you want to do it, just make sure you get it done.

    Counters:
    Steel-types, particularly the beefy ones with really high Defense, are not something Staraptor likes too much. Mega Aggron. Steelix, Mega or otherwise. Both resist its STAB moves, and Close Combat gets neither STAB nor the Reckless boost, so it may not cut the mustard. Alternatively, fast stuff. Jolteon resists Brave Bird and can outspeed and OHKO with Thunderbolt. Avalugg is also something to be wary of, with high Defense, Sturdy, STAB Avalanche, all that good stuff.

    Opinion:
    Staraptor's just awesome. Cool design, very usable in battle, gets all the right moves... What's not to like?

    Prediction for next week:
    Toxapex.

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    Other move options

    Steel Wing- Some use against certain fairy types but not useful enough in most cases
    Return- good normal type option without recoil but generally less preferred than double edge due to reckless.
    Feather Dance- lowers attack which is useful but Staraptor is better for pure attack.
    Pursuit- Situational move but potentially useful to catch opponents when switching out.
    Giga Impact- Possibly useful with Z-crystal to hit massive damage breakneck blitz but probably not worth it.
    Toxic- Useful surprise move to assist Staraptor's team if it can't do anything else but Staraptor is better for pure attack.

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    I've used this mon many many times over the last few years (which may not surprise people),and I loved using it since I started playing the game.It always was pretty fast, powerful,had nice coverage and had a really useful ability ( it now has reckless as well...I'll get there).Also, great design.

    Concerning abilities:I would personally opt for intimidate, the team support it provides by pressuring opposing physical attackers creates more opportunities for you to switch your party around. Reckless does kill things more easily, but- by default- it kills you more easily too, with that extra 33% residual damage
    This is not great when stealth rock,rocky helmet, and weather abilities etc are also kicking around, meaning you have to play more cautiously (The irony).Add the fact you no longer have the intimidate weakening incoming attacks.
    In short: Reckless sacrifices the bulk of intimidate for more power and recoil, which isn't worth it.

    Retaliate is worth a mention, because Brave Bird and Double Edge are the effectively the same attack (but Brave Bird hits more things super effectively), and hits harder in certain situations whilst avoiding recoil altogether.
    Retaliate is a 140 BP move immediately after an ally faints. With a choice band, this hits about as hard as LO reckless double edge, but with no recoil, immensely improving survivability. On following turns it's base 70 however, so you need to be aware of how healthy your opponent's setup sweepers are before locking yourself into the attack. But it's highly useful due to its ability to KO healthier bulky mons that return / double edge cannot, whilst also avoiding tons of residual damage. Also - cooler move animation

    A Banded set I've had success with:
    Staraptor@Choice Band
    252Atk/252Spe
    Intimidate
    Jolly nature
    -Retaliate / Return / Double Edge
    -Brave Bird
    -Close Combat
    -Quick Attack

    Intimidate is preferred due to the ability to switch Staraptor in at any time throughout the match and weaken the opponent's offensive position.
    Retaliate is preferred for the reasons stated above, but return or double edge can also go here if you want reliability.
    Brave Bird offers similar coverage to double edge however and hits more types super effectively. Brave bird doesn't hit electrics for much damage,but electrics tend to outspeed and ohko anyway,as do many special attackers that outspeed.
    Which is why you want a priority move to pressure weakened fastmons Tapu koko,starmie,keldeo etc. Nowadays you must be wary of psychic terrain however.
    Close Combat is great - neither double edge or brave bird hurts rock or steel types.Use sparingly though,since the defence drops caused by its usage counteract the effective defence boost granted by intimidate.

    So banded raptor is a great set, but I use the Z-Mirror move set more this gen because it hits waaay harder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aduro View Post
    Raptor isn't the best mon for Z-Mirror Move. Physical attackers will generally switch out due to intimidate so Staraptor will usually copy a z special move. And reckless variants aren't fast or bulky enough to revenge kill with it against most things. Banded or tailwind attacker sets tend to work better. I've had some fun with this variant before though:
    I feel that's more an issue of using mirror move in general.Physical attackers that do tend to stay in are setup sweepers who feel they can tank a +2 z-move, or are in fact special attackers with a mixed moveset. And if a special attack is used, you can always use z-bravebird instead and lose less momentum. But the great part about z-mirror move is that Raptor gets the +2 boost to its attack regardless, so the opponent switching into a 'wall' is only postponing the OHKO until the following turn, unless said wall can take any of +2 120 BasePower flying,normal or fighting attack (and even if they somehow can do this,they won't be very healthy afterwards).

    A Flynium-Z set:

    Staraptor@ FlyniumZ
    Intimidate
    jolly nature
    252atk/252spe
    -Mirror Move
    -Brave Bird
    -Close Combat
    -Quick Attack
    Basically click Z-mirror move vs something weakened to ensure a KO on the event they stay in, or a safe setup should they switch out. Alternatively, Z-Brave Bird does loads of damage and avoids recoil,which allows staraptor to last longer than usual.
    Close Combat for rocks/steels,Quick attack for faster threats ( which really stings at +2 atk).
    Last edited by Archstaraptor; 17th May 2017 at 12:19 PM.

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    Starly @ Choice Scarf
    Level: 5
    Ability: Reckless
    EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 36 SpA / 196 Spe
    Naive Nature
    - Brave Bird
    - Double-Edge
    - U-turn
    - Hidden Power Grass

    Thought we can do a Starly set even if it's outclassed by stuff like Doduo it still has powerful dual stabs and U-turn which is nice. HP Grass is to outspeed Clamperl and Tirtuga after they shell smash up once
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luthor View Post
    Other move options

    Steel Wing- Some use against certain fairy types but not useful enough in most cases
    Return- good normal type option without recoil but generally less preferred than double edge due to reckless.
    Feather Dance- lowers attack which is useful but Staraptor is better for pure attack.
    Pursuit- Situational move but potentially useful to catch opponents when switching out.
    Giga Impact- Possibly useful with Z-crystal to hit massive damage breakneck blitz but probably not worth it.
    Toxic- Useful surprise move to assist Staraptor's team if it can't do anything else but Staraptor is better for pure attack.
    Giga Impact only makes a breakneck blitz with 10 more base power than double-edge. Its really not worth the moveslot.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Luthor View Post
    Other move options

    Steel Wing- Some use against certain fairy types but not useful enough in most cases
    Return- good normal type option without recoil but generally less preferred than double edge due to reckless.
    Feather Dance- lowers attack which is useful but Staraptor is better for pure attack.
    Pursuit- Situational move but potentially useful to catch opponents when switching out.
    Giga Impact- Possibly useful with Z-crystal to hit massive damage breakneck blitz but probably not worth it.
    Toxic- Useful surprise move to assist Staraptor's team if it can't do anything else but Staraptor is better for pure attack.
    LOL. Slaking is the only pokemon who can utilize Giga Impact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RedRaselom View Post
    LOL. Slaking is the only pokemon who can utilize Giga Impact.
    Slaking doesn't run giga impact because it has to recharge for a turn regardless, it runs it for the high instantaneous damage output, as does any other mon that runs it.
    Giga Impact prevents you from switching out ,which is worse than truant on its own.

    That said though,all Normal types - including Staraptor - get the most out of Giga Impact because of the added STAB bonus,and can deal some pretty heavy damage.
    An itemless staraptor is used in the following calcs:

    252+ Atk Staraptor Giga Impact vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro:
    (44.1- 52%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Staraptor (Intimidate) Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro:
    (35.2-41.8%) -- 83.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Giga Impact deals more damage than Double edge(same damage as BraveBird) on intimidate sets.
    Note however, that reckless sets pretty much match the damage output of giga impact with a boosted double edge(but giga impact typically does slightly more).

    252+ Atk Staraptor (Reckless) Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro:
    (42.6 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Giga impact, like retaliate, lacks any recoil damage, and a healthy staraptor is important.
    HOWEVER; if giga impact doesn't secure the KO, slowbro gets a free turn to recover, switch out, or KO you - it's a move that should be used alongside a weaker attack (such as bravebird on the intimidate set to lure the opponent into a false sense of security.
    The recharge turn can be dangerous,so it should be used later on in the game to secure KOs,where the opponent's team cannot easily capitalise on it.

    In short:whilst reckless sets will want stick to brave bird and double edge in terms of damage output, giga impact delivers the same damage with no recoil damage, and intimidate sets could utilise the extra power.
    However, it should be used ideally when your opponent cannot take full advantage of the recharge turn.
    Last edited by Archstaraptor; 19th May 2017 at 12:25 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Archstaraptor View Post
    Slaking doesn't run giga impact because it has to recharge for a turn regardless, it runs it for the high instantaneous damage output, as does any other mon that runs it.
    Giga Impact prevents you from switching out ,which is worse than truant on its own.

    That said though,all Normal types - including Staraptor - get the most out of Giga Impact because of the added STAB bonus,and can deal some pretty heavy damage.
    An itemless staraptor is used in the following calcs:

    252+ Atk Staraptor Giga Impact vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro:
    (44.1- 52%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
    252+ Atk Staraptor (Intimidate) Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro:
    (35.2-41.8%) -- 83.5% chance to 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Giga Impact deals more damage than Double edge(same damage as BraveBird) on intimidate sets.
    Note however, that reckless sets pretty much match the damage output of giga impact with a boosted double edge(but giga impact typically does slightly more).

    252+ Atk Staraptor (Reckless) Double-Edge vs. 252 HP / 232+ Def Slowbro:
    (42.6 - 50.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery

    Giga impact, like retaliate, lacks any recoil damage, and a healthy staraptor is important.
    HOWEVER; if giga impact doesn't secure the KO, slowbro gets a free turn to recover, switch out, or KO you - it's a move that should be used alongside a weaker attack (such as bravebird on the intimidate set to lure the opponent into a false sense of security.
    The recharge turn can be dangerous,so it should be used later on in the game to secure KOs,where the opponent's team cannot easily capitalise on it.

    In short:whilst reckless sets will want stick to brave bird and double edge in terms of damage output, giga impact delivers the same damage with no recoil damage, and intimidate sets could utilise the extra power.
    However, it should be used ideally when your opponent cannot take full advantage of the recharge turn.
    LOL. If you aren't planning to switch Slaking every now and then, I think Giga Impact can be included in his moveset.

    Anyway, though it's a bit gimmicky but I ran a physical set of Altaria-Mega with Giga Impact. With 1 DDance boost, it is still possible to counter its common counters such as:

    +1 252+ Atk Pixilate Altaria-Mega Giga Impact vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Regice: 430-507 (118.4 - 139.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +1 252+ Atk Pixilate Altaria-Mega Giga Impact vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Articuno: 430-507 (133.9 - 157.9%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    +1 252+ Atk Pixilate Altaria-Mega Giga Impact vs. 252 HP / 184 Def Clefable: 445-525 (112.9 - 133.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    The only problem is Scarfed Rotom-F who can outspeed Altaria-Mega even with DDance boost. With a single blizzard, HKO is guaranteed.

  18. #18
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    This isn't a topic about the viability of Giga Impact as a whole. Let's say focused on Staraptor, everybody.

    I see a lot of Z-crystal sets, and lemme say right now, Z-Moves are more of an OO than a standard on Staraptor. Supersonic Skystrike actually hits for less damage than a Choice Band Reckless Brave Bird, and you can only use it once. Plus, you get no damage on your other moves. The main appeal is a high-power, no recoil move... But again, only once. And Z-Mirror Move is incredibly gimmicky, so I won't really get into that.

    If you're looking for just damage, Choice Band'll give you more bang for your buck in the long run. Choice Scarf is a little more standard though, since it makes a decent revenge killer and late-game cleaner with it.
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    Once upon a time, the regional birds were held with pity and contempt, seen as nothing other than underpowered Normal/Flying punching bags. And then there was Staraptor, and then all was right in the world. Not only boasting a slick design, it's also surprisingly powerful, hosting a base 120 Attack stat alongside base 100 Speed, powerful attacks in Brave Bird, Double Edge and Close Combat, and amazing abilities in Intimidate and Reckless. Staraptor isn't a perfect bird, though, as it's hampered by low 85/70/60 defenses and a poor defensive typing, leaving it weak to Stealth Rock. However, use it's power and speed at the right time and you can get spectacular results.

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    Quote Originally Posted by KillerDraco View Post
    I see a lot of Z-crystal sets, and lemme say right now, Z-Moves are more of an OO than a standard on Staraptor. Supersonic Skystrike actually hits for less damage than a Choice Band Reckless Brave Bird, and you can only use it once. Plus, you get no damage on your other moves. The main appeal is a high-power, no recoil move... But again, only once. And Z-Mirror Move is incredibly gimmicky, so I won't really get into that.

    If you're looking for just damage, Choice Band'll give you more bang for your buck in the long run.
    There is a reason why people are opting for the Zmoves over choice band,and that reason is to cut down on recoil and maintain offensive presence.

    As to whether or not Z-mirror move is "incredibly gimmicky" : it's at the very least,a free swords dance boost on the switch, and at best, a swords dance boost,with a damage bonus.(Recall how dangerous powerup punch on Mega Kangaskhan was before they banned it).
    However, Staraptor is always best used as a revenge killer so it can set up taking the least damage possible,and many weakened mons slower than staraptor are likely to switch out anyway, fearing heavy damage from the banded set.

    And then the fun begins.

    One common switchin to the banded set is ferrothorn, to wear staraptor down,pretty much through physical contact recoil alone:
    Choice Band 252+ Atk Reckless Staraptor BB vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: (69.8 - 82.1%)

    Banded Raptor takes 2 turns of iron barbs and potentially rocky helmet damage(25%HP+25%HP)After stealth rocks and bb recoil, game over. You exchange one wall for one wallbreaker:Not ideal.

    Instead, you could use z-mirror move and start the following turn with an attack at 2* power:
    +2 252+ Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: (92.8 - 109.3%)

    Regenerator walls switch in for similar reasons:
    +2 252+ Atk R. Staraptor BB vs.252HP/232+ Def Toxapex: (86.1- 101.9%)

    You likely OHKO both after some prior damage.
    The difference between this and choice band: you now you can severely damage something else,since you have -at worst- 25%HP to play with( if you OHKO a rocky helmet ferrothorn).

    Plus, your opponent cannot freely switch in a rock or steel type,since you can switch to close combat and deal with heavy damage.To illustrate the power:
        Spoiler:- DMG calcs vs Bulk:

    So regardless of what set you run,you deal heavy damage to the wall that comes in,crucial vs. ones without reliable recovery.

    Your opponent could opt to switch in something faster:
        Spoiler:- DMG calcs vs revenge killers:

    So aside from priority attacks from mega medicham and greninja ruining your day if you're at low HP, that's a lot of free damage, and free KOs late game.

    But I ramble on,as I tend to do,and I apologise for going overboard on calcs.
    My point: the Z crystal set can achieve a lot ,and should not be considered inferior to the banded set.If you click Brave bird on the banded set and get the KO, the followup KOs above are not possible; you are forced to switch out and back in later,lose momentum and take stealth rock damage the next time you come in.

    The argument for band is its immediate raw power,which can get you by depending on what you want for your team and what your opponent brings on theirs. But sometimes it just isn't enough to break the mons you want to break,and despite its power can be played around. I speak from years of experience using the banded set on many of my teams:missing KOs and being locked into the wrong move isn't fun.
    Last edited by Archstaraptor; 20th May 2017 at 3:48 PM.

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  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Archstaraptor View Post
    There is a reason why people are opting for the Zmoves over choice band,and that reason is to cut down on recoil and maintain offensive presence.

    As to whether or not Z-mirror move is "incredibly gimmicky" : it's at the very least,a free swords dance boost on the switch, and at best, a swords dance boost,with a damage bonus.(Recall how dangerous powerup punch on Mega Kangaskhan was before they banned it).
    However, Staraptor is always best used as a revenge killer so it can set up taking the least damage possible,and many weakened mons slower than staraptor are likely to switch out anyway, fearing heavy damage from the banded set.

    And then the fun begins.

    One common switchin to the banded set is ferrothorn, to wear staraptor down,pretty much through physical contact recoil alone:
    Choice Band 252+ Atk Reckless Staraptor BB vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: (69.8 - 82.1%)

    Banded Raptor takes 2 turns of iron barbs and potentially rocky helmet damage(25%HP+25%HP)After stealth rocks and bb recoil, game over. You exchange one wall for one wallbreaker:Not ideal.

    Instead, you could use z-mirror move and start the following turn with an attack at 2* power:
    +2 252+ Atk Reckless Staraptor Brave Bird vs. 252 HP / 88+ Def Ferrothorn: (92.8 - 109.3%)

    Regenerator walls switch in for similar reasons:
    +2 252+ Atk R. Staraptor BB vs.252HP/232+ Def Toxapex: (86.1- 101.9%)

    You likely OHKO both after some prior damage.
    The difference between this and choice band: you now you can severely damage something else,since you have -at worst- 25%HP to play with( if you OHKO a rocky helmet ferrothorn).

    Plus, your opponent cannot freely switch in a rock or steel type,since you can switch to close combat and deal with heavy damage.To illustrate the power:
        Spoiler:- DMG calcs vs Bulk:

    So regardless of what set you run,you deal heavy damage to the wall that comes in,crucial vs. ones without reliable recovery.

    Your opponent could opt to switch in something faster:
        Spoiler:- DMG calcs vs revenge killers:

    So aside from priority attacks from mega medicham and greninja ruining your day if you're at low HP, that's a lot of free damage, and free KOs late game.

    But I ramble on,as I tend to do,and I apologise for going overboard on calcs.
    My point: the Z crystal set can achieve a lot ,and should not be considered inferior to the banded set.If you click Brave bird on the banded set and get the KO, the followup KOs above are not possible; you are forced to switch out and back in later,lose momentum and take stealth rock damage the next time you come in.

    The argument for band is its immediate raw power,which can get you by depending on what you want for your team and what your opponent brings on theirs. But sometimes it just isn't enough to break the mons you want to break,and despite its power can be played around. I speak from years of experience using the banded set on many of my teams:missing KOs and being locked into the wrong move isn't fun.
    I'm on Mobile right now (being on call is no fun) so I can't really quote point-for-point, but I will go into this:

    What makes Z-Mirror move gimmicky is not the +2 Attack. Heck, I love +2 Attack; gimme all the Swords Dances. But the thing that makes it gimmicky is the fact that it is a Z-move; you can only use one per match. There's a reason not many Pokemon effectively and consistently can make use of Z-Setup; the most notable ones off the top of my head being the infamous Z-Conversion Porygon-Z (whose setup boosts all stats, making it harder to revenge kill as well), and Z-Hypnosis Xurkitree (whose Beast Boost lets it take advantage of the speed from Z-Hypnosis by accumulating more power, and Hypnosis at least has a decent sleep effect, although the accuracy is a bummer). With only one opportunity to set up, it's pretty much an all-or-nothing deal, and of course, it means none of your other teammates will be able to utilize a Z-move as well. So it's not really comparable to SD or Parental Bond PuP; you can always set up a second time with one of those moves if forced out, which means there's less pressure when choosing when to set up, since you don't necessarily have to only save them for late-game. Plus, once the Z-move has been used, you're stuck with Mirror move, which, in and of itself, is kind of a gimmick.

    Again, it's not saying +2 Attack isn't good. It's just saying that the nature of Z-Moves makes it more OO territory than a standard. I should have elaborated more, but the comparison of Band was more to just using a Z-Crystal for a Supersonic Skystrike and then leaving it at that. Since a Z-Move attack is pretty much just a flashy wallbreaking move, after all.
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  22. #22
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    Fair point - but that one use is often all you need to carve a large gap in your opponent's team,or sweep outright.
    Ideally you want a weakened team for the latter, but the +2 attack boost can be incredibly disruptive to opponents expecting to take a banded hit.
    Indeed, z moves are a one-time use item, but an offensive one with a +2 attack boost included prior to using said z-move poises you to deal incredible damage to any aspect of the opponent's team.
    Be it a wall or a revenge killer,using +2 Brave Bird, Close Combat and Quick Attack hits anything for good damage,and crucially, unavoidable damage.
    The opponent cannot switch in either a wall or a revenge killer to avoid it,which is where the banded set is less consistent.
    And I much prefer the all-or-nothing deal: banded sets just don't pull teams apart like this set does.
    Last edited by Archstaraptor; 21st May 2017 at 10:49 AM.

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