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Thread: General Discussion & Speculation Thread

  1. #3776
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    Quote Originally Posted by Niormon View Post
    While we are at it BW2 actually had effort in giving you a new rival

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsUgt0MNmP4

    I mean might as well be a new game at this point what dose Ultra Sun and Moon give you ? hau.....Yay more characters who tell the player character how awesome they are instated of actually motivating the player to get batter, if you side can't even see the problems we have with gen 7/6 then I don't know what to say.
    Again, you can't really compare a third version to a sequel.

    Sequels obviously provides a huge jump in character and world development since it is a continuation of an existing storyline. A lot of new characters are expected. Growth and progress (and/or the opposite) is emphasized. BW2 had entirely new set of main characters, with the story shown in their perspective. Of course a new Rival is expected.

    Meanwhile, a third version is a revision, a retelling. It's the same set of people. You can't expect Hau to be suddenly given a different characterization. They can only expand on it.

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  2. #3777
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    Quote Originally Posted by B. Thunder Tiger View Post
    I personally think that BW2 in general has spoiled a lot of players in terms of BW2's game content to the point that any future game that doesn't exceed their standards isn't worth looking at.
    Well yeah. Video games are a technology based product, and the thing about tech is that it's very iterative, it constantly tries to come out with new products that improve upon the old products while the old products go out of production and eventually disappear from the market. That creates an environment where the consumer expects the next version to be better than the last. If you buy a 4K TV and then suddenly the TV manufacturers decide not to make 4K anymore and go back to 1080p, would you be happy with that? Wouldn't 1080p suddenly feel worse because you've become accustomed to the 4K resolution that the TV manufacturers themselves tried to sell you on? It's the same thing with BW2, Game Freak decided to make a game that goes far beyond a third version and then immediately did away with it. And you can't really do that in this market, trying to sell BW2 as a unique, one off experience doesn't really work when the DS becomes obsolete and its games become harder and harder to get. This isn't the fans' fault for being "spoiled". Gamers have been conditioned to think this way because that's the way the market works.
    Last edited by Bolt the Cat; 11th November 2017 at 3:30 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by LizardonX View Post
    Tabitha has really let himself go, just how many lava cookies did he eat in the last 11 years?

  3. #3778
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wulava View Post
    Can't really compare a third version to a sequel.
    In terms of the overall story and areas/characters? Yeah, they're very different cases. But in terms of the added optional features that BW didn't have? Can't really agree there. To me, if you were to put those said features like the PWT, Join Avenue, Black Tower/White Treehollow, all of the postgame legendary hunting without really changing the main game of BW... and we'd pretty much have a "third version", wouldn't we?

    Of course, in terms of the main game, BW2 are completely different due to their status as sequels, but there's some stuff that I feel like it can't really be overlooked here when we're talking about added features in the "improved" versions, so I don't really get why I see on the internet in general, people covering their ears and going "LALALA IT'S A SEQUEL IT DOESN'T COUNT LALALA" when BW2 get brought up.
    Last edited by Josef Stylin; 11th November 2017 at 3:50 PM.

  4. #3779
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wulava View Post
    Again, you can't really compare a third version to a sequel.

    Sequels obviously provides a huge jump in character and world development since it is a continuation of an existing storyline. A lot of new characters are expected. Growth and progress (and/or the opposite) is emphasized. BW2 had entirely new set of main characters, with the story shown in their perspective. Of course a new Rival is expected.

    Meanwhile, a third version is a revision, a retelling. It's the same set of people. You can't expect Hau to be suddenly given a different characterization. They can only expand on it.
    Again, yes you can, because they fill the same roles. They're both updated versions of the most recent generation released 1 or 2 years later on the same hardware. Just because you can label something a different type of product doesn't mean it can't be replaced. Look at what the Switch is doing right now. It's not a home console and it's not a handheld, it's a hybrid of both. And yet Nintendo is phasing out both the 3DS and Wii U because it can satisfy the same roles and the same markets that they did, the Wii U has ended production and all of the typical console releases (such as BotW and Mario Odyssey) are now on Switch. And now Pokemon is ending its run on the 3DS and jumping to the Switch as well, which speaks volumes about the future prospects of the 3DS. So even though it's not a direct successor to either, it's replacing both on the market. Similarly, although a sequel is not exactly the same as a third version, it still ticks all of the boxes that a third version does and is made for the same market. So they're still comparable products.
    Quote Originally Posted by LizardonX View Post
    Tabitha has really let himself go, just how many lava cookies did he eat in the last 11 years?

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    Man... can't the haters accept that some people do like gen 7? Yes if you don't like them... fine. But please accept that some people like it. And don't turn personal problems with the game into objective problems. They are not. Maybe you would prefer another type ofrival? Fine.

    I personall didn't like Hugh as rival. Like most characters in BW he is very one sided and without depth (while the characters in SM have a lot of depth and their dialogues are not about the same thing over and over). In every dialogue with Hugh he is just an triggered a*hole who is angry about every little thing and just talks about the stolen Pokemon of his sister. I didn't liked him at all. I liked Silver but Hugh is with BW1 Cheren and Barry my last liked rival ever.

    In SM I liked that they give every character a little story and character. Like the whole backstory of Guzma about his family and how he was abused at home which is why he is how he is. His Inferiority complex is why he allways has to tell everybody he is the 'Big Bad Guzma'. SM does a better job in characterize the characters than BW/BW2 did (with few exceptions).
    Last edited by Thure; 11th November 2017 at 3:59 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wulava View Post
    Again, you can't really compare a third version to a sequel.

    Sequels obviously provides a huge jump in character and world development since it is a continuation of an existing storyline. A lot of new characters are expected. Growth and progress (and/or the opposite) is emphasized. BW2 had entirely new set of main characters, with the story shown in their perspective. Of course a new Rival is expected.

    Meanwhile, a third version is a revision, a retelling. It's the same set of people. You can't expect Hau to be suddenly given a different characterization. They can only expand on it.
    I guess your right but Ultra sun and Ultra moon are supposed to be a Different dimension from sun and moon right ? if so having a different personalty for Hau would make sense.

    Edit I'm just hoping after this we are done with the Friend Rivals,and we go back to the jerk rival or somebody that actually motives the player rather then saying stuff like " Man I wish I can be like you"
    Last edited by Niormon; 11th November 2017 at 4:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Niormon View Post
    I guess your right but Ultra sun and Ultra moon are supposed to be a Different dimension from sun and moon right ? if so having a different personalty for Hau would make sense.
    But I personally for exemple wouldn't liked this. That would feel cheap. Alternate personalities was the last things I wanted for this game. 'Let's reverse the personality'... I still don't get why some people wanted this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thure View Post
    But I personally for exemple wouldn't liked this. That would feel cheap. Alternate personalities was the last things I wanted for this game. 'Let's reverse the personality'... I still don't get why some people wanted this.
    Because to be frank not a lot of us here like Hau his exactly like the characters from Gen 6 super nice keeps talking about how awesome the player character is every time you battle and to the point he use the pokemon whose week against you, again if you can't understand our issue with gen 7 then there is no point in us having this discussion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Niormon View Post
    Because to be frank not a lot of us here like Hau his exactly like the characters from Gen 6 super nice keeps talking about how awesome the player character is every time you battle and to the point he use the pokemon whose week against you, again if you can't understand our issue with gen 7 then there is no point in us having this discussion.
    I loved Hau, actually. He and Gladion played off each other perfectly so the idea of him changing personality and basically becoming a second Gladion doesn't excite me at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanineblitz View Post
    I do miss antagonistic rivals but I think problem lies more in the writing since you can flesh out a goodhearted character and have them motivate you at the same time.
    That would be Cheren, who is perhaps my favorite rival.

    He was a decent person, but was also dead set on being the best. He pushed and motivated me as a player because I didn't want to lose to a character that was actually on the same path as me. He strongly desires to win, trains, and is not pleased at all when he loses, yet isn't a huge **** about it. That's the kind of rival I like. Instead, Hau is a character you know you're going to beat, and he smiles almost as much as the protagonist. It's nerve wrecking.

  11. #3786
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thure View Post
    Man... can't the haters accept that some people do like gen 7? Yes if you don't like them... fine. But please accept that some people like it. And don't turn personal problems with the game into objective problems. They are not. Maybe you would prefer another type ofrival? Fine.
    Only if the 7th gen fans can understand why the games are being hated. See, this is another example of why it's a bad idea to make every game like a special snowflake, the fans get divisive over the things that are kept or changed. Whereas if Game Freak actually took a balanced approached towards making games that appeal to a variety of gameplay preferences every game they'd be able to keep most if not all of the fanbase happy.
    Quote Originally Posted by LizardonX View Post
    Tabitha has really let himself go, just how many lava cookies did he eat in the last 11 years?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat View Post
    Only if the 7th gen fans can understand why the games are being hated. See, this is another example of why it's a bad idea to make every game like a special snowflake, the fans get divisive over the things that are kept or changed. Whereas if Game Freak actually took a balanced approached towards making games that appeal to a variety of gameplay preferences every game they'd be able to keep most if not all of the fanbase happy.
    I understand why you don't like the game. But I don't agree with it. There is no reason to blame the game and claim you're objectivelly right about this topic. There will allways people who like something and people who hate something. You can't make everyone happy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Niormon View Post
    Because to be frank not a lot of us here like Hau his exactly like the characters from Gen 6 super nice keeps talking about how awesome the player character is every time you battle and to the point he use the pokemon whose week against you, again if you can't understand our issue with gen 7 then there is no point in us having this discussion.
    Could there be a better rival than Hau? Yes. But to reverse his personality would just feel like the wrong way to change it. Also: yes he choses the weaker starter. But just to give the stronger starter to the camp. And also Gladion uses the Silvally which is strong against the player. You have to see it that way: Gladion is the rival character who is more anti-hero while Hau is the more supportive character. We already have a supportive and a rivalist rival.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thure View Post
    I understand why you don't like the game. But I don't agree with it. There is no reason to blame the game and claim you're objectivelly right about this topic. There will allways people who like something and people who hate something. You can't make everyone happy.
    That is the game's fault. It's supposed to be a product designed to draw in as many people as possible. So if multiple people have a particular complaint about the game, you need to address it to maximize sales. There's something to be said for personal preference but at that level it's less about appealing to personal preference and more about balancing everyone's preferences. And you can make a strong argument with the divisiveness and complaints in the fanbase about this game that this game is not succeeding at the latter. They're not going to be able to stop every single person on Earth from complaining, no, but they could be doing MUCH better than this.
    Quote Originally Posted by LizardonX View Post
    Tabitha has really let himself go, just how many lava cookies did he eat in the last 11 years?

  14. #3789
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat View Post
    Only if the 7th gen fans can understand why the games are being hated. See, this is another example of why it's a bad idea to make every game like a special snowflake, the fans get divisive over the things that are kept or changed. Whereas if Game Freak actually took a balanced approached towards making games that appeal to a variety of gameplay preferences every game they'd be able to keep most if not all of the fanbase happy.
    I am a Gen 7 fan who has a lot of criticism for Gen 7, so I see both sides very well.

    As some may know, I initially had no intention on getting USUM, because I had gotten sick and tired of run-of-the-mill third games. While I am now won over with USUM, I still have my criticisms about it, as well as with Sun & Moon and the series as a whole.

    The fans you speak of are not like Beyoncé fans. They're not going to to root for and hype up anything Game Freak dishes out regardless of whether or not it sucks. We all have our gripes. However, no one has to actually care nor understand another's gripe. Some people think I'm an idiot for complaining about the lack of free roaming in the series. I think others are idiots for complaining about competitive viability. It's called opinions, and we all have them. Due to this, no game will ever appeal to all fans. I still think Black & White is crap overall, and despite its dope story, I will likely never play it again. There will always be hits and misses. There will always be those who are not pleased with the end result. There will always be those that are.

    Only when the actual majority speak out on a similar complaint can and will Game Freak listen. Does it suck? Sure! But that's how it goes. Let's hope Pokémon Switch is a dope AF experience.

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    Quote Originally Posted by PrinceOfFacade View Post
    I am a Gen 7 fan who has a lot of criticism for Gen 7, so I see both sides very well.

    As some may know, I initially had no intention on getting USUM, because I had gotten sick and tired of run-of-the-mill third games. While I am now won over with USUM, I still have my criticisms about it, as well as with Sun & Moon and the series as a whole.

    The fans you speak of are not like Beyoncé fans. They're not going to to root for and hype up anything Game Freak dishes out regardless of whether or not it sucks. We all have our gripes. However, no one has to actually care nor understand another's gripe. Some people think I'm an idiot for complaining about the lack of free roaming in the series. I think others are idiots for complaining about competitive viability. It's called opinions, and we all have them. Due to this, no game will ever appeal to all fans. I still think Black & White is crap overall, and despite its dope story, I will likely never play it again. There will always be hits and misses. There will always be those who are not pleased with the end result. There will always be those that are.

    Only when the actual majority speak out on a similar complaint can and will Game Freak listen. Does it suck? Sure! But that's how it goes. Let's hope Pokémon Switch is a dope AF experience.
    It doesn't even need to be the majority actually. It just needs to be enough people to be vocal enough to reach Game Freak's ears and/or to hurt Game Freak's wallet. Even say, 20% of the fanbase complaining could be enough for Game Freak to address the complaints.

    And like I said to Thure, the differences aren't completely irreconcilable at this point, there's still some issues that can be resolved without upsetting someone else. Making sequels instead of third versions is not going to turn away many fans that already like what USUM is doing. Having more optional exploration is not going to take away from the people who like a linear story. Deeper gameplay mechanics are not going to make casual fans less interested. Game Freak simply doesn't know how to make a well balanced game.
    Quote Originally Posted by LizardonX View Post
    Tabitha has really let himself go, just how many lava cookies did he eat in the last 11 years?

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    You can get away with small dungeons and super linear in handheld games

    Console different different. Espically with zelda, skyrim showing it how it's done.

    I hope we people have big expections for first console Pokemon mainline game. This franchise is Massive. Makes 100s of millions each year. We should expect the best from it

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat View Post
    It doesn't even need to be the majority actually. It just needs to be enough people to be vocal enough to reach Game Freak's ears and/or to hurt Game Freak's wallet. Even say, 20% of the fanbase complaining could be enough for Game Freak to address the complaints.

    And like I said to Thure, the differences aren't completely irreconcilable at this point, there's still some issues that can be resolved without upsetting someone else. Making sequels instead of third versions is not going to turn away many fans that already like what USUM is doing. Having more optional exploration is not going to take away from the people who like a linear story. Deeper gameplay mechanics are not going to make casual fans less interested. Game Freak simply doesn't know how to make a well balanced game.
    So... if 80% would prefer Island Challanges over Gyms... and 20% prefer Gyms... the 20% should be laught enough and force Game Freak to change back to Gyms? You see the problem with 'Vocal 20%', do you?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thure View Post
    So... if 80% would prefer Island Challanges over Gyms... and 20% prefer Gyms... the 20% should be laught enough and force Game Freak to change back to Gyms? You see the problem with 'Vocal 20%', do you?
    In that case, no. That's a conflicting preference where you have to choose one or the other. In a situation like wanting an extra feature or more areas to explore, where the complaint is about something supplemental that could easily be added onto the existing package, 20% could be enough.
    Quote Originally Posted by LizardonX View Post
    Tabitha has really let himself go, just how many lava cookies did he eat in the last 11 years?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat View Post
    In that case, no. That's a conflicting preference where you have to choose one or the other. In a situation like wanting an extra feature or more areas to explore, where the complaint is about something supplemental that could easily be added onto the existing package, 20% could be enough.
    Look I understand that you don't like Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon and don't want to spend your money it and that's your choice and your opinion, however that does not mean that just because you don't like that somehow enough people will share your opinion and actually hurt the sales of Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon, realistically speaking the amount of people that won't buy Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon isn't even going to be anywhere close to 20% if anything it will only be 1%-5%(at the most) maybe even lower, Gamefreak knows how to sell main series pokemon games as they've been doing this for 20 years, they would have not made Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon if they weren't confident in it selling well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Thure View Post
    Man... can't the haters accept that some people do like gen 7? Yes if you don't like them... fine. But please accept that some people like it. And don't turn personal problems with the game into objective problems. They are not. Maybe you would prefer another type ofrival? Fine.
    You really need to tone down your negative rhetoric. If you disagree with those who dislike the game, that's fine, but that doesn't make them 'haters' or people unwilling to accept that others like it. The complaints that most have brought up are valid and do have a place in the discussion, and considering many are still on the fence about this game it's appreciated to see discussions like this to know both sides and how the game stacks up. There are some that take it too far on the criticisms over the game, but at the same time you're doing the exact same thing on the opposite end.

    Really, you need to take your own advice and at the very least tone down your attacks on others who don't care for the game. If you're looking forward to it, then do just that, but stop with the attacks as it goes nowhere in terms of the discussion at hand.


    It's time to return to the old, soaring back to Hoenn!

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowForce720 View Post
    Look I understand that you don't like Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon and don't want to spend your money it and that's your choice and your opinion, however that does not mean that just because you don't like that somehow enough people will share your opinion and actually hurt the sales of Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon, realistically speaking the amount of people that won't buy Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon isn't even going to be anywhere close to 20% if anything it will only be 1%-5%(at the most) maybe even lower, Gamefreak knows how to sell main series pokemon games as they've been doing this for 20 years, they would have not made Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon if they weren't confident in it selling well.
    I wouldn't be so sure about that. For one, third version games typically sell very low compared to other games. They're usually in the 6-8 million range. So dipping under 5 million, which I think would be the point where Game Freak would stop and say they need to re-evaluate their strategy, is entirely possible. Now as far as whether the complainers will hurt the sales, there's a couple of things to consider. For one, this game is on the same hardware just one year after the original. So it's unlikely to catch a lot of new players that didn't buy SM last year, they most likely either bought SM or weren't interested in it. Second, negative impressions on the core concept of something has had a negative impact on sales. We've seen this with the Wii U, whose design and concept was so heavily flawed and unwanted that the console just never took off in sales no matter how hard Nintendo tried. On a game level, we saw the same thing with Metroid Prime Federation Force, regardless of how good the game was at what it did it simply wasn't what the Metroid fanbase wanted that it flopped. The same thing could easily happen with this game, because the game hasn't delivered the kind of scale of change some segments of the fanbase wants that could translate into lower than average sales. Maybe not as low as the other two examples, but low enough to be statistically significant to Game Freak.
    Quote Originally Posted by LizardonX View Post
    Tabitha has really let himself go, just how many lava cookies did he eat in the last 11 years?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat View Post
    I wouldn't be so sure about that. For one, third version games typically sell very low compared to other games. They're usually in the 6-8 million range. So dipping under 5 million, which I think would be the point where Game Freak would stop and say they need to re-evaluate their strategy, is entirely possible. Now as far as whether the complainers will hurt the sales, there's a couple of things to consider. For one, this game is on the same hardware just one year after the original. So it's unlikely to catch a lot of new players that didn't buy SM last year, they most likely either bought SM or weren't interested in it. Second, negative impressions on the core concept of something has had a negative impact on sales. We've seen this with the Wii U, whose design and concept was so heavily flawed and unwanted that the console just never took off in sales no matter how hard Nintendo tried. On a game level, we saw the same thing with Metroid Prime Federation Force, regardless of how good the game was at what it did it simply wasn't what the Metroid fanbase wanted that it flopped. The same thing could easily happen with this game, because the game hasn't delivered the kind of scale of change some segments of the fanbase wants that could translate into lower than average sales. Maybe not as low as the other two examples, but low enough to be statistically significant to Game Freak.
    Not really, again your really blowing what you don't like about the games and assuming that a significant amount of people feel the same way, which not the case, sure you can view the games as negatively as you want but that doesn't mean there going to take hit in sell you keeping say that oh well that third versions sell very low compared to the other games, but's not necessarily true as being able to still sell third versions in the 6-8 million is still a accomplishment that other games wish they had. I mean you can say that oh it won't sell well and it sell will be hurt all you want but the reality of situation is no, it won't take a beating in sell and it will still sell relatively well as in all likelihood when you combined all the potential demographics of who is going to buy the game and who is not, your not going to get anywhere close to 20% of people not buy the game ,nor is it going to flop.

    Stop trying to blow this out of proportion, I understand that you don't like the game but to pretend like oh the sales are going to get significantly hurt is ridiculous.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowForce720 View Post
    Not really, again your really blowing what you don't like about the games and assuming that a significant amount of people feel the same way, which not the case, sure you can view the games as negatively as you want but that doesn't mean there going to take hit in sell you keeping say that oh well that third versions sell very low compared to the other games, but's not necessarily true as being able to still sell third versions in the 6-8 million is still a accomplishment that other games wish they had. I mean you can say that oh it won't sell well and it sell will be hurt all you want but the reality of situation is no, it won't take a beating in sell and it will still sell relatively well as in all likelihood when you combined all the potential demographics of who is going to buy the game and who is not, your not going to get anywhere close to 20% of people not buy the game ,nor is it going to flop.

    Stop trying to blow this out of proportion, I understand that you don't like the game but to pretend like oh the sales are going to get significantly hurt is ridiculous.
    No, it's not just me. It's Pokemon fans all over the internet, all having the same kinds of arguments. Look around at other Pokemon forums, look around on social media like Facebook and Twitter, look around on Youtube, there are far more people than me having these kinds of complaints. I'm not blowing anything out of proportion, there really is a large segment of the fanbase unhappy with these games.
    Quote Originally Posted by LizardonX View Post
    Tabitha has really let himself go, just how many lava cookies did he eat in the last 11 years?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bolt the Cat View Post
    No, it's not just me. It's Pokemon fans all over the internet, all having the same kinds of arguments. Look around at other Pokemon forums, look around on social media like Facebook and Twitter, look around on Youtube, there are far more people than me having these kinds of complaints. I'm not blowing anything out of proportion, there really is a large segment of the fanbase unhappy with these games.
    No your blowing this out of proportion it's not that oh well there are all these people complaining about so that must mean it's a significant amount of the fan base, right? no wrong, there is every reason to believe just a very vocal 1-5%, just because a vocal minority are complaining about the games does not mean that they are suddenly going to flop. It's not a large segment of the fanbase that's unhappy with the games it's a very small part of the fanbase that likes to think that they are large part of the fanbase when they aren't. Saying that your going to all these places and seeing people complain is not anywhere close enough to being a accurate gauge of how many people will and won't buy the games. Plus you also got people who are saying they won't buy the games but at the end of the day they will break down and still buy the games. Sure there will be some people that won't buy the games but it's nowhere near the numbers you think or are assuming it will be.


    Basically your saying that regardless of what the majority of the fanbase thinks of the games that the games should flop just because minority of the fanbase thinks doesn't like the games. Which no matter how you try to argue it or look at it that doesn't make any sense. Look you and other people are free to dislike the game as much as you want but stop trying to pretend that the people that don't like the games and won't buy them are a majority or any significant proportion of the fanbase, basically your essentially saying screw the majority that likes the games or at the very least will buy them and that Gamefreak should only care about the minority that dislikes the games and doesn't buy them.
    Last edited by ShadowForce720; 11th November 2017 at 7:55 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ShadowForce720 View Post
    No your blowing this out of proportion it's not that oh well there are all these people complaining about so that must mean it's a significant amount of the fan base, right? no wrong, there is every reason to believe just a very vocal 1-5%, just because a vocal minority are complaining about the games does not mean that they are suddenly going to flop. It's not a large segment of the fanbase that's unhappy with the games it's a very small part of the fanbase that likes to think that they are large part of the fanbase when they aren't. Saying that your going to all these places and seeing people complain is not anywhere close enough to being a accurate gauge of how many people will and won't buy the games. Plus you also got people who are saying they won't buy the games but at the end of the day they will break down and still buy the games. Sure there will be some people that won't buy the games but it's nowhere near the numbers you think or are assuming it will be.
    No, there is not every reason to believe it's just a vocal 1-5% when it's this widespread. Unless you can point to me an example of a game that was near universally hated on the internet and still sold well, your argument holds little weight. I've provided several examples where this kind of phenomenon provides tangible effects on sales.

    Furthermore, even looking at this from the perspective of the casual silent majority, there's still little reason to believe a large number of people like this game. First, we have seen consistent patterns in sales data where new generations sell in the 15-18 million range whereas third versions sell in the 6-8 million range. If this segment of the fanbase is 1-5% as you claim, that only accounts for a loss of .15-.75 million in sales whereas there are 10 million people who bought the new generation that didn't buy the third version. So clearly there are 9 million casual fans not buying the third versions. If those people are fine with what the third versions are providing, then why are they not buying them? The sales data disagrees with you here.
    Quote Originally Posted by LizardonX View Post
    Tabitha has really let himself go, just how many lava cookies did he eat in the last 11 years?

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