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Thread: Antifa and Black Lives Matter vs. KKK and Neo Nazis:A battle of false equivalence

  1. #126
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    Anarchists I tell you, anarchists!
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    Admiral, you can argue all you want that the protesters in Charlettsville were "peaceful", but the facts remain, they were chanting "blood and soil", one of them was a murderer, and Trump tried to equate them with the counter protest.

    Nazis were horrid monsters, and trying to equate anyone with them crosses the line.

    Don't believe me? When Spielberg directed Shindler's List, he had to revise the script to make it less realistic, because he thought viewers would accuse him of exaggerating if he made it too accurate. Now, rent that movie, see how horrific the situation was depicted, and keep this in mind: you're watching the tamer, less accurate version.
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    I think the point was more that if things get that bad then you have to take more direct action, but you can't be purely reactionary with this stuff, you have to find the problems as the source and fix them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by windwakemeup View Post
    also, on a not serious note: Shame and humility? In my Jontron? More unlikely than you think!

    (If anyone gets that reference you get an internet cookie)
    I don't get that reference. Does that mean JonTron has no shame or humility? I'm really saddened that the GameGrumps haven't called him out on being a racist pos.
    Jackpot!

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    Start of thread: 'Antifa has no problem with violence, it's all made up, cherry syrup etc etc etc'

    This flaming wreckage: 'Murder and torture are a-ok, you guys'

    And so many of you seemed to wonder why I'm anti-political mob violence. These strange people have managed to get themselves this wound up on a Pokémon forum.
    Last edited by Scammel; 12th September 2017 at 6:48 PM.

  6. #131
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    The middle ground isn't always the most logical standpoint.

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  7. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scammel View Post
    Start of thread: 'Antifa has no problem with violence, it's all made up, cherry syrup etc etc etc'

    This flaming wreckage: 'Murder and torture are a-ok, you guys'

    And so many of you seemed to wonder why I'm anti-political mob violence. These strange people have managed to get themselves this wound up on a Pokémon forum.
    Do you always blow yourself like this?

    Despite your whining, you've actually backpedaled from a lot of statements, namely:

    Nah. The violent minority can take responsibility for their thuggery. It just highlights what utter cretins they are if they're so stupid they don't know how to intellectually combat Nazism.
    And then when people "Jumped down your throat" you quoted Teshun or whatever his name is, agreeing with his more nuanced position that the violence from both parties is not equal and should be used as a last resort.
    Last edited by Baba Yaga; 12th September 2017 at 10:01 PM.

  8. #133
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    Grow up.

    And then when people "Jumped down your throat" you quoted Teshun or whatever his name is, agreeing with his more nuanced position that the violence from both parties is not equal and should be used as a last resort.
    And that would be real interesting, if that was the argument being put forward. If you were being intellectually honest, you'd recap the fact that the OP's argument revolved around a flat denial that Antifa had any problems with violence at all (they do) and that they had ever laid a finger on anyone other than a card-carrying white supremacist (they have). The thread title's a misnomer - this didn't start as an attempt to deny equivalence, this was an attempt to whitewash a flawed movement.

    I'm perfectly happy to stand by everything I've said. Antifa has a big problem with a minority of violent thugs in their membership, and they're not rendered morally superior to the rest of us because of the forces they claim to be opposing. We've been opposing Nazism perfectly well for decades, thanks.

    Reposting because I like it:

    Here's a list of things that can all be true:

    - Nazism is the most repugnant ideology on the face of the Earth.
    - Neo-Nazi and far-right movements have an alarming tendency towards violence and intimidation.
    - The broad stated aims of white supremacy and the Antifa movement are not morally equitable.
    - There is no monopoly on opposition to Nazism and it has been combatted by many ordinary and extraordinary people from across the political spectrum throughout history.
    - The Antifa movement also has an alarming tendency towards violence and intimidation, though on a lesser scale.
    - Many Antifa members are far too comfortable with the notion of political violence even if they are nonviolent themselves (see the 'punch a Nazi' trope).
    - Innocent bystanders and journalists have been attacked at Antifa events by activists.
    - Nonviolent Nazis and white supremacists should have the right to advocate their views without fear for their own safety.
    - Anyone who feels the need to use violence against a nonviolent Nazi is openly advertising the fact that they are a glue-eating chimp without the faculties to intellectually challenge Nazism.

    Not a mote of contradiction in any of that. Opposition to Nazism is such an easy, such a fundamentally human thing to do, that we should all be able to expect much, much better from this movement.
    Last edited by Scammel; 12th September 2017 at 10:27 PM.

  9. #134
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    We really haven't been. Pretending that there isn't an issue isn't the same as solving the issue.

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    Seriously, you've been stroking yourself this entire discussion and it's annoying as hell. It isn't immaturity to call it out.

    And that would be real interesting, if that was the argument being put forward. If you were being intellectually honest, you'd recap the fact that the OP's argument revolved around a flat denial that Antifa had any problems with violence at all (they do) and that they had ever laid a finger on anyone other than a card-carrying white supremacist (they have). The thread title's a misnomer - this didn't start as an attempt to deny equivalence, this was an attempt to whitewash a flawed movement.
    You were addressing my argument, not the OP's. Lord. You changed your argument from a snobbish "Only idiots/thugs can't challenge Nazism intellectually." to agreeing that violence can be used in limited circumstances.

    - Anyone who feels the need to use violence against a nonviolent Nazi is openly advertising the fact that they are a glue-eating chimp without the faculties to intellectually challenge Nazism.
    This is where you go off the rails. I stand by what I said earlier, that the ideology of Nazism is inherently violent, and when it's preached in large demonstrations it creates an atmosphere that becomes an inevitable powder keg like in Charlottesville, or even by lesser extent Donald Trump's rallies where minorites were often beaten. The problem with you is that you move the goal posts - when punching a nazi doesn't work, your beliefs about violence are confirmed - they play into the hands of the forces you're opposing, we're no better than they are, etc. but when it does work in deterring their demonstrations it's the "symptom of a sick society" or somehow it's worse when Nazis are forced back into twitter because they're "invisible" (The internet is so invisible.) than out in the open, posing direct threat to the public.
    Last edited by Baba Yaga; 12th September 2017 at 10:55 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baba Yaga View Post
    You were addressing my argument, not the OP's. You changed your argument from a snobbish "Only idiots/thugs can't challenge Nazism intellectually." to agreeing that violence can be used in limited circumstances.
    My argument hasn't changed at all. Yes, you are an idiot if you don't know how to call out Nazism without using your fists. No, violence should never be used to silence speech. I don't know how you think I backtracked when agreeing with Tehrun:

    Outside of self-defense, there is literally no reason to punch a Nazi/Klansman.
    Seriously, you've been stroking yourself this entire discussion and it's annoying as hell. It isn't immaturity to call it out.
    I'm accepting ownership of my arguments. Apologies if that comes across as snobbish or intimidating.

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    Someone has never had to look at the minority perspective if you think some speech shouldn't be stopped before it leads to action.

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    He shows a repeated and consistent failure to address the claim that the preaching of Nazi ideology and demonstrations inevitably lead to violence and that the ideology is inherently violent. The closest he came was awhile back, by making an appeal to the Supreme court's decision, but how does he reconcile the fact that time and time again, they very clearly have seemed to have gotten it wrong? Considering all these (initially) non violent events that 99% of the time become violent in some way, shape, or form?

  14. #139
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    I mean Nazism was on the rise in a lot of places pre-WW2. I don't know as much with other countries, but a lot of the people in favor of it tried their best to scrub a lot of it from the history books.

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    preemptive self defence

    There are plenty of reasons to punch a nazi. Discouraging them from spouting their bigotry, for example.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sadib View Post
    I don't get that reference. Does that mean JonTron has no shame or humility? I'm really saddened that the GameGrumps haven't called him out on being a racist pos.
    It does mean that, it's a reference to the "It's more likely than you think" meme which I won't link here but can be google'd. JonTron isn't part of Game Grumps anymore so that might be why, though I wonder why several people in Normal Boots stay on when they've shown a willingness to call out Jontron before and have even stated they dislike him (mostly talking about peanutbuttergamer here).

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    Boy, now I remember why I decided not to follow up very much in this shit carnival. Really, at this point, I don't know why we need this thread open anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mordent99 View Post
    Admiral, you can argue all you want that the protesters in Charlettsville were "peaceful", but the facts remain, they were chanting "blood and soil", one of them was a murderer, and Trump tried to equate them with the counter protest.
    I didn't imply they were peaceful. Like, where the **** did you get that from?

    I mean, it's obvious, Nazis are evil. Blah blah I have skin in this game too, do you want me to tell you about the whole genderfluid/bisexual thing and how the original Nazis burned the original Institut fur Sexualwissenschaft in 1933. But also, your murderous streak is far too wide for anyone who wants to call themselves a human being. Do I need to go back and remind you what you said about John McCain? I mean, he is a scumbag (and admittedly, I rescinded my earlier grace because he pretty much decided to try and go for the gold medal in the 2017 Scumbag Olympics), but you crossed a line, and now you're crossing another one when you suggest we should actually kill, by torture (according to the stories, Vlad the Impaler, whom you name-check, invented some really intricate torture methods resulting in slow deaths) or crucifixion, Nazis. Due to the complexity involved with these, what you're suggesting we do is very systemic as opposed to being something that could be read as self-defense by most people (think about this: if you knew someone out there had a contract to kill you, and you find them and kill them first, how likely is that to be considered self-defense?).

    It is fully possible to stop Nazism and silence hate speech without resorting to surrendering your humanity. There is a strong difference between a giving someone a sucker punch and murdering them, especially if it's heavily premeditated. Let's consider not giving in to the temptation to be as shitty a human being as them, 'kay? If you seriously think the ends justify the means, you have probably never done anything seriously wrong in your entire life, and if you'd be able to say that after the fact and forever, you're probably a little bit on the sociopathic side. What you two are doing is probably the thing we need the least of right now.

    "He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." - you know, that guy

    Quote Originally Posted by bobjr View Post
    I think the point was more that if things get that bad then you have to take more direct action, but you can't be purely reactionary with this stuff, you have to find the problems as the source and fix them.
    There's also this.

    You don't destroy an ideology by killing all the people who believe in it anyway. That methodology means you just end up waiting around for someone else to come back with it so you can keep playing your game of Ideological Whac-a-Mole.

    Quote Originally Posted by windwakemeup View Post
    It does mean that, it's a reference to the "It's more likely than you think" meme which I won't link here but can be google'd. JonTron isn't part of Game Grumps anymore so that might be why, though I wonder why several people in Normal Boots stay on when they've shown a willingness to call out Jontron before and have even stated they dislike him (mostly talking about peanutbuttergamer here).
    I'm guessing that Normal Boots is a relatively informal group, but I'm not an expert about its internals.
    Last edited by The Admiral; 13th September 2017 at 4:49 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Admiral View Post
    I didn't imply they were peaceful. Like, where the **** did you get that from? .
    From Trump. He keeps insisting again and again that the Nazis at that rally were "peacefully protesting with a permit" while the footage shows something very, very different,

    The "cherry syrup" comment, which implies that Trump is more "manly" and braver because he thinks war is better than negotiations is a common belief by his fat, stupid, gun-toting apologists, which never fails to drive me to rage.

    When their own sons - and daughters! - are brought back from overseas in body bags they might finally realize how stupid they sound.
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    So basically, it wasn't actually relevant to anything I even said in the first place?

    In which case, why are you posting it in a manner that suggests a connection?

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Admiral View Post
    So basically, it wasn't actually relevant to anything I even said in the first place?

    In which case, why are you posting it in a manner that suggests a connection?
    My post that you quoted was not directed at you. It is directed at everyone and anyone who tries to claim that Antifa and BLM are just as bad as the neo-Nazis who were chanting "Blood and Soil" who refuses to admit that said neo-Nazis were squarely and solely to blame for what happened in Charlottesville.

    Which includes Trump.
    Last edited by Mordent99; 13th September 2017 at 3:42 PM.
    Stupid Trump Voter: I support Trump cause he ways what he means!

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    The 'cherry syrup' comment is directly lifted from the first post of the thread. I'll have to plead ignorance if there's another context.

    Someone has never had to look at the minority perspective if you think some speech shouldn't be stopped before it leads to action.
    One of the central cruxes of my argument for free speech is the protection of minorities:

    It gets much harder to defend the rights of minorities if you can't defend those same rights when it's more socially difficult...

    Anti-speech laws are fun and games until people are apprehended by the state for jokes... Or any one of thousands of other forms of speech that need protecting to safeguard minorities. Popular speech is never under threat...

    It doesn't matter if you enact such a scheme under the nicest, most trustworthy administration you can think of, because even a fairytale perfect government isn't going to be in power forever.

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    And instead we have people blaming minorities for trying to fight the status quo, which is starting to hurt them more and more both socially and economically. Antifa is polling right around MLK's level at his most active in terms of support, and a lot of that comes from misinterpretation for what he actually did, that he was just 100% talk and no action.

    The long game isn't about a specific government, but to instill it in human behavior.

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    'Action' is fine. Action is good. Action is attending counter-protests, demonstrating in public, writing to lawmakers, improving the visibility of issues and minorities; so on and so forth. It might even involve granting a platform to those with hateful views, to better dress them down.

    I'm pretty sure MLK never donned a balaclava and picked up a baseball bat, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Scammel View Post
    '

    I'm pretty sure MLK never donned a balaclava and picked up a baseball bat, though.
    That's because he was a pacifist and a minister, who knew that Jesus would not approve of violence. Something Trump and his apologists clearly believe works better than negotiations.
    Stupid Trump Voter: I support Trump cause he ways what he means!

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    So all the things Leftists are already doing? This push to the left from the Dems didn't come out of nowhere, and surely not from the rich donors. From what I see the balaclava/batball bat people are a very small minority, especially as the movement grows more and more.

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