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Thread: On Discouraging Criticism (EVERYONE READ)

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    Default On Discouraging Criticism (EVERYONE READ)

    So I discussed with a couple mods and decided that we're going to put a new rule -- well, less a rule than an indicator and reminder -- into effect.

    I've been thinking about things recently, and it's occured to me that a lot of you don't accept any form of criticism, be it a short post full of helpful tips, blunt and open criticism, or outright flames. Now, the latter I could understand, but the former two (yes, even blunt criticism in MOST cases), well...

    Point is, I don't quite think some of you understand the purpose of posting in this here art forum.

    One of the unspoken golden rules of posting art here, on devART, on SheezyArt, or anywhere on the internet, really, is that if you don't want criticism of any form, then you don't put it up at all. If you're looking for mindless praise or zombie-like dribble about how omg awesome your picture is no matter how horrendous OR beautiful it actually is, then the internet -- specifically, this forum -- is not the place to be showing it off.

    Sometimes we don't like to be criticised harshly and don't welcome it. This is fine. I have no problem with you not wanting someone to be bluntly telling you "well, I think it sucks because...", since this can be hurtful even if it isn't a personal thing. But dismissing tips just because "they don't help/I don't like them/I don't want to improve/etc."? There's something not right about that.

    It should be common sense that there is no such thing as a perfect artist and there is always room for improvement in some way, yadda yadda, you've heard this before, I'm sure. But age, artistic ability, and newness/time in this forum are all completely irrelevant to who gets criticism and who doesn't, and in what way. It's a part of the internet and the process of improvement, and no matter how many times you put it in big bold bright red size 72 font that you don't want any criticism, it's going to happen, and you're going to need to accept it eventually if you expect to continue posting art anywhere on the interbutt.

    We have harsh critics in this forum, yes. And at times, I am one of them. But as long as they're not stepping over the boundaries of flaming, they have every right to say what they will of your art as long as they justify their opinion. (Ex. "I don't like this picture much because the thick lines really take away from the style of the coloring and the rest of the picture.")

    I know this is getting a bit tl;dr, but there's more to say about this. You may be thinking something like "oh, no, now people are going to give me all kinds of mean replies!" And I don't want anyone to feel like they are now powerless against critics. You still have the right to disagree. You still have the right to not take their advice if you so desire. You still have the right to report any flame wars that may break out, or flamebaiting posts that think they have the complete authority to post an insult to your art.

    Just keep in mind that blowing off someone because they gave you criticism of a certain level of bluntness?

    Not okay.




    TO ARTISTS:

    - Please don't ever be afraid to disagree with critics, no matter how harsh their responses might be. If they ever step over the line, action will be taken, because this isn't an open invitation for people to start flaming every picture they think is horrible.

    - When someone gives you tips or criticism, whining is unacceptable. You posted it, and just by posting in the art forum, you pretty much waive your right to complain about people giving you their honest opinions about your creations.

    - The point of this forum remains: it's a forum both for displaying your art and for the opportunity to improve and receive feedback. It doesn't mean you can ignore all your comments and continue to do what you do if you know you're doing something that could be done better.

    - Keep the idea of respect in mind when replying to your critics. If one or more of them is borderline-flamebaiting, you can reply politely and say "I disagree", you can ignore them, or you can report them and mods will take a look at it.




    TO CRITICS:

    - Note that, as stated above, this new rule is not in any way, shape, or form encouraging you to flame. Flaming is still absolutely unacceptable and will be taken care of appropriately. It's also not an excuse to start flame wars or to harp on the artist about what you feel is terrible about the art until they decide to cave in and take your advice. Because that's what it is: advice. It is not to be forced on the artist in any way.

    - Keep the idea of respect in mind at all times, as stated above. This also applies to the critics. If you think your reply is too harsh or will provoke the artist negatively, perhaps you should word it differently or add a disclaimer that you don't want to artist to feel it's an attack on their art.




    tl;dr version: Respect is, for both parties, the most important component of this forum. That means that there is to be no whining or screaming or insulting from either the artists or the critics when someone posts a critique of any form. This isn't really a rule, I just felt it would be best to remind some people of this important, unspoken rule that, unfortunately, does not come naturally to some people.





    ...So there you go.

    Please keep in mind this applies for all subforums as well as the main forum; it's not like we don't have flame wars in fan sprites or fan comics ever either. Don't disregard this, no matter what part of the forum you're in.

    Now, post questions/concerns/additional comments here. 8D

    (...My hands hurt. D|)


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    thanks for this. i see often people say "critisism welcome!!!111"

    and i say something even slightly mean

    "the feet are, kinda big"

    and they flip out.

    this should really clarify.
    arttttttt;;

    thanks lust
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    THANK.YOU.

    I love the new rule
    I'm sick of people posting art and stating that they don't want any crits. :/
    What's the point then??
    Last edited by KetchupO; 26th May 2008 at 11:54 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KetchupO View Post
    THANK.YOU.

    I love the new rule
    I'm sick of people starting posting art and stating that they don't want any crits. :/
    What's the point then??
    Why do you say what i wanted to say?

    I also luve this new rule.
    My 2 threads died because no one ever gave me some advice how to improve them, i only got this in my thread's: "OMG MAKE MORE ITS FANTASTIC!"
    And the forum really needs a rule like this, there are so much newbies only saying that is fantastic or just say it sucks...
    And then all the people who post Art and don't want to listen to great crit..

    So go on with making people realize what a Fan Art forum really is and the purpose of it.
    Forgotten.

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    Now...the question is where the line is between criticism and flaming. I've seen comments, for example, telling some people that they should throw away their art supplies and never draw again and that any actual help would be a waste of time. That would be flaming, right? What about someone who does give advice, but in a harsh, rude, and sarcastic kind of way? Like instead of "the feet are, kinda big," it's "Your feet are too big. I sure wouldn't want my feet to be that big, or I'd trample your mom."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ophie View Post
    Now...the question is where the line is between criticism and flaming. I've seen comments, for example, telling some people that they should throw away their art supplies and never draw again and that any actual help would be a waste of time. That would be flaming, right? What about someone who does give advice, but in a harsh, rude, and sarcastic kind of way? Like instead of "the feet are, kinda big," it's "Your feet are too big. I sure wouldn't want my feet to be that big, or I'd trample your mom."
    I suppose it'd work on a case-by-case basis. I mean, some really do toe the line in the "respect" department and are intended to sound jackassy, but others are just a bit blunt and not really intended to be offensive, they just come across that way because they're so unabashedly blunt. I have no problem with harsh critics or extremely blunt critics, like I said -- I am one at times -- but because the line is thin and blurry, it's hard to shift harsh commentary all into either flaming or not flaming.

    The entire idea is respect, though. If you know you're not being respectful to the artist (i.e. "the hands suck, quite frankly, and though I don't mean to sound rude, it does look like you need to work on them" vs "wow, the hands are horrible, I've never seen worse anatomy in my life"), you'd best revise your post or just not post at all.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyran View Post
    Why do you say what i wanted to say?

    I also luve this new rule.
    My 2 threads died because no one ever gave me some advice how to improve them, i only got this in my thread's: "OMG MAKE MORE ITS FANTASTIC!"
    And the forum really needs a rule like this, there are so much newbies only saying that is fantastic or just say it sucks...
    And then all the people who post Art and don't want to listen to great crit..

    So go on with making people realize what a Fan Art forum really is and the purpose of it.
    I feel like you've read my mind! I never realized how painfully annoying it is for everybody to say "ZOMG U PWN 10000000/10!!!!1!1!!one" about my artwork until I joined this forum.

    I've notice that whether people never accept criticism, never criticize, or always flame, they have the same assumption: criticism = attack (or vise-versa). To be honest, I used to be one of those people (by never criticizing).

    Thank you SO MUCH for putting this up!
    Last edited by Equusdiligo; 12th December 2007 at 12:19 AM. Reason: add a thank-you

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    Thank you Asuka.
    I've been harsh at times, and someone even downright hated me until I pm'd that person to say it wasn't personal at all ^^. Hope this will help people accept more critics because the situation is really poor as it is now imo <_<.

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    Wow, I just came back, and I see this.
    Maybe this will stop the influx of crap drawings from flowing into (and out of, for that matter) the art forum.
    Good job, Asuka.
    I know this is a bump, but I really don't care; this makes me happy.

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    some drawings r really crappy & people say "OMG that is amazing"...wtf?!:/

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    i'm glad someone drew a line so that people realise that they place work up to be examined not to be admired, i mean sheesh it doesn't kill you, if you get crit it means you need to work harder to improve, crit is a good thing in the long run, otherwise you're being blindfolded -_-

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    The only thing that pisses me off about critiques is when the person who is trying to critique fails at doing so.

    Example:
    • [Picture]

    Member critique:
    • The arm is weird.

    Fine and dandy, but how does it look weird?
    Seriously, if you're going to make a critique, put some form of description in your critique as to WHY it looks weird, etc. That's like trying to introduce a new idea you have and giving the title and no description about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by EeveeG View Post
    The only thing that pisses me off about critiques is when the person who is trying to critique fails at doing so.

    Example:
    • [Picture]

    Member critique:
    • The arm is weird.

    Fine and dandy, but how does it look weird?
    Seriously, if you're going to make a critique, put some form of description in your critique as to WHY it looks weird, etc. That's like trying to introduce a new idea you have and giving the title and no description about it.

    I agree so much. Is this sort of comment classed as spam? Can we report it?



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    Quote Originally Posted by mangaeyes View Post
    I agree so much. Is this sort of comment classed as spam? Can we report it?
    Unfortunatly i don't think so, as it's still within the topical confines of the thread, it's just poor Critique on their part.

    but 'can it be made reportable?' is another thing entirely.

    This is how i define critism - Saying an aspect of the art posted could be improved, followed up with a suggestion on how it can be improved. If you don't know how it can be improved, say so, atleast then the artist will know you have taken time to think of a possible solution, and that you havn't reached one.

    *sigh* ok my rant is finished.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ~.:Northern Lights:.~ View Post

    This is how i define critism - Saying an aspect of the art posted could be improved, followed up with a suggestion on how it can be improved. If you don't know how it can be improved, say so, atleast then the artist will know you have taken time to think of a possible solution, and that you havn't reached one.
    I agree. Even if you think the suggestion is a load of rubbish at least its something for you to think about and maybe improve your art. I hope this can be made reportable...



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    Quote Originally Posted by mangaeyes View Post
    I hope this can be made reportable...
    It actually is reportable because I have reported it once or twice and seen the posts been deleted but if you do report it make sure it for comments like "Good Work" or "Cool Sprites/Art Dude" by themselves because if they say that and actually criticise you then it alright but what out for what you report and if you aren't sure then PM a fan art mod to make sure. It doesn't actually happen alot but it has started to rise in numbers rescently and gone very spammy, hence the new annoucement from Zephr Flare.

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    ^two post above: what?!

    Thanks, finally....but, I'm still concern about some critics, whose always post something like: "OMG dis is awsome, make more!" I don't know if they even bother to look at the art, and just posting to increase their post count. I even see someone said things like: "don't listen to them, your arts are awsome!" WTF?

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    I think some people are abit harsh when they criticize. :/ I said some, not all. You shouldn't leave a criticizing comment on someone's art that will just murder their soul. That's just down right unnecessary.

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    If you post your art, you're putting yourself open to criticism, every artist knows - or should know that. But then if you criticize, you should at least support it and tell the artist what they could do to make it look better, instead of just pointing out an error. A critic should be constructive, or it won't help the artist improve.

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    as a begining artist (and not a very good one i will admit xD)... it is understandable for people to crit and such but what if the art itself was not in the visual but in the consept... i started a lulzy comics thread and people have made some art crits when they are all drawn in about 1hr on MS paint useing the touch pad on my laptop
    i ask for crit on the comics themselves as it is the jokes that are ment to make them enjoyable... so far ive only had minor crits on the drawings but i was wondering if what i do falls under this "taboo" section of self absorbed artists???

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    This is something that I agree with a passion. Still, it will depend on the person. Some are strong to accept criticisms and Improve while some are afraid or cower on a critic.

    Truly, it takes time to understand
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    I've been thinking about things recently, and it's occured to me that a lot of you don't accept any form of criticism, be it a short post full of helpful tips, blunt and open criticism, or outright flames. Now, the latter I could understand, but the former two (yes, even blunt criticism in MOST cases), well...

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    You may request for your thread to be closed, deleted or moved at any time. This includes the title of your thread being edited but please try to get it right first time wherever possible Remember you always have the option of PMing a user yourself if you wish to ask a question.

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    I plan on posting something soon, and I'm completely open to suggestions

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