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Thread: The decision to make Koga an E4 in gen 2

  1. #1
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    Default The decision to make Koga an E4 in gen 2

    Why? Wouldnt Sabrina or Blaine have made more sense? What about Koga screamed promotion over the rest of the Kanto gym leaders? The fact that he was the only one stupid enough to have his last Pokemon commit suicide regardless if I still had usable Pokemon in my party?

    I also dont understand how Lance became champion when the champion is whoever defeats the Elite Four and then the standing champion should exist? Shouldn't Red still be champion? Even if Red went MIA wouldnt Blue be acting champion?

    I mean it was always kind of weird how from gen 2 and onwards its just a given there's already a sitting champion but in gen 1 no such presumption was made.
    Last edited by gentwoer; 29th August 2017 at 10:40 AM.

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    Yeah, Koga is a bit of a weird choice. Sabrina was definitely a tougher battle and Blaine is the more experienced 7th Gym leader. Maybe he just trained harder in the intervening years. Or Sabrina was inexperienced as a relatively new gym leader while Blaine wanted to stay on Cinnabar. As for Lance becoming champ, its possible that after Red gave up the job to travel, Blue didn't choose to try and take the title back. So Lance became the champion again. My headcannon was that Blue thought the champion title would be hollow if he knew that he'd never beaten Red.

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    Perhaps Kyou (Koga) was selected because he had hidden potential that the other Kanto Gym Leaders lacked. I'm no fan of him, but he seemed imposing enough to warrant the promotion if we assume that he simply improved a lot off-screen compared to his peers.

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    I know there isn't anywhere in the games that makes this canon, but I've always assumed that the Elite 4 members have all been Champions at one point. Why would the people who determine the current champion not be champions themselves (with the exception of the first Elite 4 at the time of the League's creation)?

    Maybe in the two years since Red became Champion, Koga decided he was ready to advance beyond a lowly gym leader and take on the Elite 4 himself, with the intent of not only becoming a champion, but becoming one of the Elite 4.

    With Agatha retiring (or dying of old age?), and 2 new up and comers trying to take her place, maybe Lance took it upon himself to take Red's place as Champion so that Will and Koga could both have a place in the Elite 4. Lance was already a champion in the past if he was able to become an Elite 4 member, and as the strongest of the current Elite 4, he was best suited to claim the Champion position in Red's absence.

    That's just my speculation. I've actually put a lot of thought into this in the past because the fanfic I was working on had a lot to do with the politics of the Pokemon world.
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    Lance most likely became the Champion the only way you can, so yes, he probably defeated either Red or Blue (in case Red didn't accept the position) and took the role for himself.

    About Gen 1: there was simply no Champion yet. When you defeat Lance, he outright says defeating the Elite Four would have made you the Champion if someone else (Blue) hadn't managed to do the same thing not long ago. It's the same situation as Alola in Sun and Moon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ver-mont View Post
    Lance most likely became the Champion the only way you can, so yes, he probably defeated either Red or Blue (in case Red didn't accept the position) and took the role for himself.

    About Gen 1: there was simply no Champion yet. When you defeat Lance, he outright says defeating the Elite Four would have made you the Champion if someone else (Blue) hadn't managed to do the same thing not long ago. It's the same situation as Alola in Sun and Moon.
    I disagree. A new league was not being established in Red/Blue; it already existed. Who's to say after the Elite 4 Blue didn't beat an unnamed champion that we never saw or heard from?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Volt Grunt View Post
    I disagree. A new league was not being established in Red/Blue; it already existed. Who's to say after the Elite 4 Blue didn't beat an unnamed champion that we never saw or heard from?
    Lance is.

    When you defeat him, he says that would have made you Champion if Blue hadn't just done the same thing.

    He doesn't say you'd face the Champion, he says you'd have been the Champion right there.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aduro View Post
    Yeah, Koga is a bit of a weird choice. Sabrina was definitely a tougher battle and Blaine is the more experienced 7th Gym leader. Maybe he just trained harder in the intervening years. Or Sabrina was inexperienced as a relatively new gym leader while Blaine wanted to stay on Cinnabar.
    Also, before she battles you in Gen I Sabrina says outright that she doesn't really enjoy doing so ("I dislike fighting, but if you wish, I will show you my powers!"), so it's always possible that she was offered the position and turned it down.

    As for Blaine... Well, the time skip between Gens I and II that the promotion would've taken place in also includes the volcanic eruption that wiped out not only his Gym but his entire town, (not to mention a good chunk of the island itself), so it's possible he was just too busy dealing with the aftermath of that disaster to consider a promotion right then.
    Last edited by Cat's Eye Draco; 30th August 2017 at 5:06 PM. Reason: Crazy Auto Correct :P

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ver-mont View Post
    Lance is.

    When you defeat him, he says that would have made you Champion if Blue hadn't just done the same thing.

    He doesn't say you'd face the Champion, he says you'd have been the Champion right there.
    "I still can’t believe my dragons lost to you, <player>! You’re now the Pokémon League champion! …Or, you would have been, but you have one more challenge ahead. You have to face another trainer! His name is… <rival>! He beat the Elite Four before you. He is the real Pokémon League champion!"

    I guess that could be interpreted in different ways. To me, Lance doesn't imply that you would have been champion just by beating him. He is stating what the player has come to believe since no one has told him otherwise up to that point. Then he tells the player that he actually isn't finished yet. Just because the player wasn't aware that there was a champion, doesn't mean there wasn't one all along that Blue managed to defeat before Red even stepped foot at the league. That's my interpretation anyway. It could be that no one was ever able to beat the Elite 4 before Blue.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glaceona View Post
    Also, before she battles you in Gen I Sabrina says outright that she doesn't really enjoy doing so ("I dislike fighting, but if you wish, I will show you my powers!"), so it's always possible that she was offered the position and turned it down.
    I could easily see this being the case since she never seemed all-that competitive to me. She seemed like she was naturally gifted as a Gym Leader, but would rather use her free time for psychic meditation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Team Volt Grunt View Post
    "I still can’t believe my dragons lost to you, <player>! You’re now the Pokémon League champion! …Or, you would have been, but you have one more challenge ahead. You have to face another trainer! His name is… <rival>! He beat the Elite Four before you. He is the real Pokémon League champion!"

    I guess that could be interpreted in different ways. To me, Lance doesn't imply that you would have been champion just by beating him. He is stating what the player has come to believe since no one has told him otherwise up to that point. Then he tells the player that he actually isn't finished yet. Just because the player wasn't aware that there was a champion, doesn't mean there wasn't one all along that Blue managed to defeat before Red even stepped foot at the league. That's my interpretation anyway. It could be that no one was ever able to beat the Elite 4 before Blue.

    But that's EXACTLY what Lance is implying or well actually stating. He straight up tells the player "you would have been the champion...if your rival wasn't already" the implication is pretty much defeating the elite four already makes you champion. It's pretty impossible to interpret the line any way other than "Had your rival not defeated us first you would have been champion"

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    What was wrong with Koga? He seemed competent as an E4 member, so his position seemed deserved.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alloutℯ View Post
    What was wrong with Koga? He seemed competent as an E4 member, so his position seemed deserved.
    Honestly I think the problem was that a middling difficulty gym leader took a big step up. Even though stronger gym leaders stayed where they were. But this thread kinda speaks to how underdeveloped the gym leaders can be as NPCs and how the Elite 4 system isn't that well explained. A lot of them only get about a hundred words of dialogue per game. Most Gym Leaders have great designs, but half of them didn't feel like nuanced characters with ambitions or depth to their characters. I wish there were more details on them from things like the Fame Checker.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alloutℯ View Post
    What was wrong with Koga? He seemed competent as an E4 member, so his position seemed deserved.
    Some players of R/G/B/Y just seem confused as to why the fifth Gym Leader in the region got such a big promotion when there were stronger candidates. Personally, I didn't think Kyou/Koga was a bad choice, although he was a pain to defeat in G/S/C.

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