The Saffron Con (420)

[Pokemon Fan]

Isn't Squirtle a bit to young for a pokemon contest?
Please tell me this is R1 type or May will lose when it comes to the battling.....

Squirtle is only a lil baby

It was a starter Pokemon that would have been given to a beginnign trainer so its not that young. Besides the starters seem able to grow pretty quickly from weak to fairly strong.

That Zenigame knowing Ice Beam really p*sses me off. Sure, Geodude brings up a point on how it depends on the type of Pokemon, considering Satoshi's Coatoise could already use Overheat, but.... and I'm sorry for bringing in game mechanics here.... it can be assumed that techniques are either hereditary, immitatable (as the case with Eneko's Blizzard, Pikachu's Iron Tail, and Kimori's Bullet Seed), or the trainer simply instructs how to use it themselves through tough training. Now, we know Haruka never trained it to use Ice Beam, and it never saw another Pokemon use Ice Beam. It's a starter Pokemon. It was being kept around by Ookido, meant to be given out to a beginning trainer. As a starter Pokemon, it should've been specially bred to not have such moves and prevent any cheapa** trainers from setting out into the world immediately, wouldn't you think?

Given the moves we've seen Pokemon trained and in the wild know or automatically learn, I hardly think that's how it goes. A lot of factors influence it, the main being what the writers want to happen. ^_^ But there is also the trainer, I think it's reasonable that a starter Pokemon would grow more quickly and learn better attacks more quickly if under the care of a fairly experienced trainer like May rather than under the care of a newbie.

This is why I'm okay with Squirtle learning Ice Beam. In all these weeks May has had it the thing has been in a few battles and done a number of things. However it hasn't learned any new moves. It's perfectly reasonable to me that once it was ready to display a new move it would use all that experience its gained to make it a very good new move like Ice Beam. I also think that it being a Water type may have helped. It already knew how to aim projectile attacks (unlike Ash's Snorunt) thanks to these Water moves, and since ice is only frozen water, Squirtle was a lot more prepared once it used Ice Beam.

And really, any way you look at it, you gotta be getting sick of all the luck the writers are giving Haruka.

I will admit she has had more than her share of good luck (even May admitted this in the recent English contest episode, saying that she wasn't too skilled yet). However, Ash had a lot of lucky breaks early in his training career too.

And luck only has so much to do with it. Since each Pokemon is unique even within a species, each learning attacks and growing in different ways and at different rates, things like May's Squirtle getting Ice Beam should happen sometimes (see above about Squirtle.) The Pokemon's mental state seems to be especially important too, as well as the complexity of the attack it is learning.

May didn't look angry at all.

May's reaction does confuse me, given they didn't exactly part on nice terms previously. Any idea what she said when she first saw him and started blushing?

[Alfonso]

May's reaction does confuse me, given they didn't exactly part on nice terms previously. Any idea what she said when she first saw him and started blushing?

Uh...

"HAARII-SAN!"

[Yamato-san]

Given the moves we've seen Pokemon trained and in the wild know or automatically learn, I hardly think that's how it goes. A lot of factors influence it, the main being what the writers want to happen. ^_^ But there is also the trainer, I think it's reasonable that a starter Pokemon would grow more quickly and learn better attacks more quickly if under the care of a fairly experienced trainer like May rather than under the care of a newbie.

This is why I'm okay with Squirtle learning Ice Beam. In all these weeks May has had it the thing has been in a few battles and done a number of things. However it hasn't learned any new moves. It's perfectly reasonable to me that once it was ready to display a new move it would use all that experience its gained to make it a very good new move like Ice Beam. I also think that it being a Water type may have helped. It already knew how to aim projectile attacks (unlike Ash's Snorunt) thanks to these Water moves, and since ice is only frozen water, Squirtle was a lot more prepared once it used Ice Beam.

Uh huh.... so exactly why did Satoshi, an even more experienced trainer, struggle to get his Pokemon to master Iron Tail, Bullet Seed, Aerial Ace, and Ice Beam? Three out of four of those being attacks the Pokemon at least saw someone else perform before (unlike Haruka's Zenigame). And, if you claim a Water-type would have such an easy time mastering Ice Beam, why wouldn't it work the same, if not better, for.... oh, I don't know.... an Ice-type? I also fail to see your point when you say "In all these weeks May has had it the thing has been in a few battles and done a number of things." Right, it was in like three or four battles. In one of those battles, it got its a** handed to it by Shuu's Flygon, one was a mock battle with Satoshi's Gomazou which was interrupted by Sweet Honey Koduck-chan, and the rest were against Rocket Dan, whom as we know, just seems to be the writer's fodder for making anyone, even a sucky trainer of the day, seem as though they made some big accomplishment. The Zenigame did that little, in all this time that Haruka's had it so far, and you're making it seem as though it deserves to get a new attack. And this logic isn't flawed how?

I will admit she has had more than her share of good luck (even May admitted this in the recent English contest episode, saying that she wasn't too skilled yet). However, Ash had a lot of lucky breaks early in his training career too.

True. After all, he did have a Hitokage evolve into a Lizardon in only a few episodes, and after Lizardon evolved, he rolled onto the egg of an incredibly rare Pokemon, Togepi, which just seemed to be in the middle of nowhere. He had a Crab, which didn't battle before in its life, evolve after beating just one opponent (which it seemed to be at a clear disadvantage against), and sweep through Satoshi's first league battle afterwards. He ran into the Kantou starters, all seemingly rare Pokemon, in three consecutive episodes and got them to join his team. For his starter, he got a Pikachu that's supposedly very strong for its species (I question this one.... looking back on the episodes, I think Rocket Dan only mistakenly made the wronged assumption, when it seemed Pikachu was actually just getting an added charge from Satoshi peddling Kasumi's bike). The writers purposely put him in situations where he could get a gym badge through heroism or dumb luck rather than actually battling and strategizing. Probably some other stuff I can't think of off the top of my head.

However, Haruka's cheapness seems a bit different. Satoshi, after travelling one or two regions, at least stopped seeming like such a cheap-a**, seeming as though he's grown enough that the writers could stop giving him handicaps. Haruka, on the other hand, got through Houen, and the writers are still giving her lucky breaks as evidenced by Zenigame's Ice Beam, as well as getting that damned turtle in the first place. Also, even back in Kantou, Satoshi did have to work a bit for it to pay off. Hitokage was at least in quite a few battles before it evolved into Lizard, and as a drawback, the writers also made Lizard and Lizardon a very troublesome Pokemon for Satoshi to handle until well over halfway into the Orange Islands. Same thing goes for Fushigidane getting Solar Beam and Zenigame getting Hydro Pump, they all worked for it. I also don't recall Satoshi winning things as cheaply and unrealistically to the extreme as, say, an inexperienced Eneko plowing through a Hyper Beam with Blizzard (I like Eneko, but watching the Phantom match, I can see where all the "Super Skitty" comments come from).

[The Big Al]

Pokemon Fan is just pulling stuff out of the blue to try justify the unjustifiable again. Yes, this was cheap. Ash and his Pokemon bust their rears and May's Pokemon just, get lucky. I swear, I'm tired of her lucky streak. Since the Fallarbor tournament in which she actually had to use her brain, she's been cruising on pure luck and I for one am tired of it.

[Porygandrew]

I loved all of the music in this piece!

I didn't notice it until Espeon came out, but while in the Contest Hall, there wasn't any background music at all, then all of a sudden comes this really beautiful piece of music, it was wonderful!

Great intro, I like it.

The music sold me, overall.

As well as the Cacnea/Jessie relationship. She deserves a little something like that for intimidating all of the pokemon she uses in contests.

[Jo-Jo]

Oh, honestly, is Squirtle learning one measly attack really that big a deal? It's just karma for it getting trounced by Flygon a few eps previously. It can't keep on being useless all the time. And how was May lucky for getting it in the first place? You can't tell me that running into a Squirtle in Professor Oak's lab is less likely to happen than running into a whole gang of them out in a random town.

As for her cruising ever since Fallarbor, um, no. None of her contest wins except the Dusclops one could possibly be described as cheap.

And since I've seen the Saffron episode now: Espeon's Swift is ZOMGawesome, Lilian is cooler than Vivian but has worse dress-sense, at least Harley's plan was a teensy bit different this time, plus he looked funny in that doctor's coat, Jessie's haircut is... intriguing, I am finding the idea of one-sided Cookieshipping increasingly amusing, it was sweet of James and Meowth to try to help out Jessie by stealing the competition, aaaand I think that May will probably win the contest in the next episode. There.

[Yamato-san]

Oh, honestly, is Squirtle learning one measly attack really that big a deal? It's just karma for it getting trounced by Flygon a few eps previously. It can't keep on being useless all the time. And how was May lucky for getting it in the first place? You can't tell me that running into a Squirtle in Professor Oak's lab is more likely to happen than running into a whole gang of them out in a random town.

Karma....? KARMA...?! Are you ****ing kiddin' me? You do realize that the battle against Shuu was pretty much the first battle it was ever in, and Pokemon like Flygon aren't exactly a pushover. If you were honestly expecting it to win, then it's evident that you're on some serious stuff. Also, how can you say it needed to stop being useless all the time? The writers weren't using it in any battles for it to properly gain experience. Maybe if it were in a few battles, it would show to grow more skilled with using the arsenal of moves it already has, instead of just learning some supposedly difficult-to-learn, powerful technique out of nowhere and just throw any slow-paced, but realistic, developments out the window.

And read what I said in the Spoilers forum, in that thread asking what everyone thinks about Haruka getting a Gonbe or Zenigame. I specifically point out how it is cheap for Haruka to have got that thing in the first place. And yes, learning one attack is a big deal when Haruka should be out of the "free handouts by the writers" phase by now, and it's a very good attack which Satoshi had to bust his butt to get a Pokemon that naturally learns it to use it properly.

[jynx]

I didn't like this epi.

It doesn't feel like they are in Saffron City or even in Kanto.

It still feels very Houenn.

It's just a stupid contest held in Kanto and it doesn't feel like Kanto.

[The Big Al]

And as I said in the "Could May take it" thread several months ago, May has had the longest lucky streak ever and apparently it won't stop. Ash has been shocked, cooked, frozen, shrunk, pantsed, thrown in jail, disembodied, petrofied, punched, stabbed, held up, and just about anything you can think of and that's by the end of the Kanto saga. He's had it rough.

Then here comes May who's supposed to be the co-star. She actually has to work at being a trainer once and then it's lucky break after lucky break. Pokemon suddenly learning super attacks out of nowhere. Assist bull's eyeing every time. It makes me so mad that such a great anime has sunken so low.

EDIT: And no it doesn't. Kanto is the home of the original eight gym leaders. Including a certain Perfume Shop owner they should give Ash a rematch to.

[Jo-Jo]

Karma....? KARMA...?! Are you ****ing kiddin' me?

No, I'm not ****ing kidding you. If I decide to ****ing kid you in the future, I will let you know. It's a predictable element of stories that characters who are humiliated in one episode will usually redeem themselves in a later one. Hence, karma. If Squirtle gets knocked right out by Flygon without landing a hit, it's a fair bet that it'll get to strut its stuff in the next important battle. Rather like Beautifly pwning in Fallarbor after losing at Slateport.

You do realize that the battle against Shuu was pretty much the first battle it was ever in, and Pokemon like Flygon aren't exactly a pushover. If you were honestly expecting it to win, then it's evident that you're on some serious stuff.

You somehow got from "It can't keep on being useless all the time" that I expected Squirtle to beat Flygon, and I'm on the serious stuff? Whatever.

Also, how can you say it needed to stop being useless all the time?

There wouldn't exactly be much point in May having it otherwise.

The writers weren't using it in any battles for it to properly gain experience. Maybe if it were in a few battles, it would show to grow more skilled with using the arsenal of moves it already has, instead of just learning some supposedly difficult-to-learn, powerful technique out of nowhere and just throw any slow-paced, but realistic, developments out the window.

Well, what can I say. They gave Squirtle an unrealistic move. Somehow I'm still having difficulty getting outraged about it. Perhaps the reason we didn't see Squirtle practice for several episodes to learn Ice Beam is because we'd already seen Snorunt do that less than fifty eps previously, and watching it all over again would be bloody boring?

And read what I said in the Spoilers forum, in that thread asking what everyone thinks about Haruka getting a Gonbe or Zenigame. I specifically point out how it is cheap for Haruka to have got that thing in the first place.

I don't follow that thread. Care to paraphrase?

And as I said in the "Could May take it" thread several months ago, May has had the longest lucky streak ever and apparently it won't stop. Ash has been shocked, cooked, frozen, shrunk, pantsed, thrown in jail, disembodied, petrofied, punched, stabbed, held up, and just about anything you can think of and that's by the end of the Kanto saga. He's had it rough.

Then here comes May who's supposed to be the co-star. She actually has to work at being a trainer once and then it's lucky break after lucky break. Pokemon suddenly learning super attacks out of nowhere. Assist bull's eyeing every time. It makes me so mad that such a great anime has sunken so low.

*sigh* This is the problem. Everyone acts as though May and Ash are equal stars of the show. They're not. May is second to Ash in importance. The writers can't devote as much development to her training or her journey as they do to Ash without elevating her status on the show by a considerable amount. So yes, she gets it a bit easier. However, Ash is rewarded for his extra work by getting to be the star and overall getting more glory and more screentime. Karma, again.

[The Big Al]

He basically said Haruka getting Zenigame was one of the cheapest events in the anime. I have to agree. It just jumped into her arms because it was scared of being in a Poke Ball. Suddenyl, they're best buddies.

[CyberCubed]

Last time I checked the same thing happened more or less with Togepi and Misty. There was no effort there either.

[The Big Al]

Yes but Misty was a supporting character. May is supposed to be a co-star.

[Jo-Jo]

So... May spends an episode bonding with Squirtle, and 'catches' it. This is bad. And totally different from her spending an episode bonding with Skitty and then catching it. Or Bulbasaur. Or, loosely speaking, Munchlax. And it's also totally different from Ash catching Caterpie just by throwing a Poke-ball at it, no skill required. Or receiving Charmander despite the fact that Brock spent more time and effort caring for it, as Ash himself admitted at the time. Or Haunter going along with Ash and winning him a gym badge just because Ash played with it.

Why you people set up these bizarre rules about what kinds of Pokemon captures are 'acceptable' and what kinds aren't is beyond me. Especially considering that every character from Ash to filler-girl-of-the-day-no.87 has been catching Pokemon in every conceivable way, from gruelling, hard-won battles to instant friendship ever since episode 1.

[Pokemon Fan]

Uh huh.... so exactly why did Satoshi, an even more experienced trainer, struggle to get his Pokemon to master Iron Tail, Bullet Seed, Aerial Ace, and Ice Beam? Three out of four of those being attacks the Pokemon at least saw someone else perform before (unlike Haruka's Zenigame). And, if you claim a Water-type would have such an easy time mastering Ice Beam, why wouldn't it work the same, if not better, for.... oh, I don't know.... an Ice-type?

You forget that Snorunt could quite easily use Ice Beam from the moment it learned the move. It's problem was controlling the direction, power and such of the beam, hence my point about May's Squirtle already knowing how to control projectile attacks.

The Zenigame did that little, in all this time that Haruka's had it so far, and you're making it seem as though it deserves to get a new attack. And this logic isn't flawed how?

Namely that Pokemon in the anime gain experience even when they lose. Fighting drew's skilled Flygon would have given a lot of experience to it. Anyway my logic is only that it deserved the move because it hadn't learned any other moves or changed at all before that, the experience it got had to go somewhere.

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That being said I am disappointed in how it learned the move. Even though we never saw May training Bulbasaur to get Petal Dance until it actually mastered the move, we are still told it happened. In contrast with this Squirtle we never saw or are told (as far as I know) of any special training. I think simply putting in a few lines about how she had been working with it for hours every day for a few weeks would have made the Ice Beam a good deal more acceptable.

So in all Big Al, Yamato-san, I do agree with you. I'm just not as upset over it as you because I think there are a few mitigating circumstances, though they may exist only in my mind. Let us hope this is the last of the cheap contests.

[suavesky]

if ash and may actually trained instead of just 2 days
they have some kick A** pokemon to help them win any contest or frontier battle

[WaterDragon trainer]

This was a pretty cool episode. I thought it was funny how Cacnea reluctantly hugged Jessie rather than James. Brock saying Jessie getting fired was funny. It was also funny when Scizor had to cut Jessie's hair and she passed out. The TC was awesome. Registeel sounded amazing. James and Meowth getting blasted off from Ice Beam was hilarious (Meowth: "Wow! That's cold.") At the end, Jessie's hairdo was weird.

[RandomCharizard]

Great episode, Harley was awesome as always. XD at the part when he slaps max's back. Too bad next episode Squirtle ruins the damn thing.

Off topic:
Oh and..
Wtf is "Spider Riders"?

[munchlaxboy]

Very good episode. Funny with Cacnea and Jessie. Registeeel sounded awesome (I got the question right, too)! Funny when Brock asked if Jessie was fired. Pretty cool and funny to see Meowth and James to say the motto.
6/10 I didn't like that May got to participate in the contest just because her Squirtle used a Ice Beam.

[Jonouchi]

The TC today was interesting

Which of these Pokemon is the tallest? Regirock, Registeel, or Regice

Registeel was the answer, but I haven't thought about that before. Very interesting

The episode was alright. Nice to see Harley again.

    Spoiler:- Harley next week:

Show Spoiler

 
Shame he'll get beaten in a bad way tomorrow
 

[Lil Brother]

Seriously, they need Trainer's Choice to be like this week's (and the Hoenn fossil Pokemon ep's) more often. I actually got it wrong!

Yay, Squirtle begins to be an annoying cheap plot device this ep!

Is it just me, or was Harley not as camp as usual this episode? Or am I just used to higher expectations from him like what he pulled at the already infamous Kanto Grand Festival? XD

[TotodileCharizard]

Overall this episode was pretty cool, I'm just not too fond of her Squirtle one bit, I like Skitty and Combusken better. Harley sounds so funny! This is the first time I've ever heard his voice and I was shocked, I thought he would have some deep voice xD It was funny when Cacnea hugged Jessie and the Scizor had to cut her hair off xD

[EmbersBackUpSinger]

I liked this Episode but i thought Harley was a girl! He sounds like one alot even though i lauged @ him alot! When Squritle used Ice Beam i was in awe. It looked so hott! But i knew harley still had a little bit of evil left in him.

[Staryu]

May's lucky Wendy or whatever her name was saved her ***. I still don't get why Joy went along with Harley - - it reminded me of the first movie where she was under a trance or whatever xD

[Lil Brother]

...Wendy? You mean Lillian? XD