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Thread: A Hurdle For Squirtle (421)

  1. #101
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    I liked the episode and it was pretty cool. Although I wanted Jessie to beat Harley. Nice plan she thought up there. I don't mind Harley losing because it just teaches him a good lesson. Squirtle doing an Ice Beam at that time was smart.

    Besides, we have Squirtle that seems to be a great battler and performs well in contests. What do we get now? A bunch of people mad that Squirtle beat Ariados using Ice Beam and Harley losing. Who cares if he lost, he's a loser not a winner. He beat Jessie be happy with that. I just wanna get through this season fast..

  2. #102
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    The point is the writers shouldn't be making Harley a looser if they want him to be a good rival. Nobody is going to take him seriously if he looses every friggin' time. Especially to a little baby Zenigame. That's just sick.
    ~

  3. #103
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    May's Squirtle is getting too strong too fast. Plus now if it gets too powerful that means that there's no reason for Ash's Squirtle to come back, as there would be nothing to teach it.

    If May's Squirtle means that we'll never see Ash's (much better and cooler) Squirtle again, then I'll be pissed.

    The writers had no problem giving both Bulbasaur the spotlight. May's Bulbasaur didn't replace Ash's Bulbasaur, since Ash's still gets good screentime.

    But with Squirtle it's like the writers don't give a damn. Is it really that hard to make May's Squirtle lose so it can learn from Ash's Squirtle and the Squirtle Squad? I don't want Ash's Squirtle forgotten from the show.

  4. #104
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    I'm not a big fan of how May's Squirtle defeated Harley's Ariados, but I can see how, with A LOT of luck, it might be possible since Harley's Ariados seemed to be a one trick pony. Without webs, it wasn't all that great, kind of like Jackson's Meganium only not nearly as strong. I'm not scared of where this will lead yet because of the fact that May's Squirtle was horrifically demolished by Drew's Flygon, and I don't think that knowing Ice Beam would've saved it in that battle. I hope the writers are going for May's Squirtle having some versatility right off the bat while Ash's Squirtle has the power that May's Squirtle lacks. I also think that since Harley tries to take short cuts (i.e. trying to trick May into not being able to take part in the contest) that his pokemon might not really be all that strong for their evolutionary level. And if they are strong, then he doesn't know how to use them (maybe it's both). We'll have to see how things pan out. But May's trademark does seem to be lots and lots of luck.
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  5. #105
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    Yes, it does. In fact, Pokesho's trainer profile of her even nicknames her "Beginner's Luck Haruka-san".

    In my rant, I forgot to bring up something that wasn't pointed out before. Did anyone notice that the contest seems to have elliminated the number scores when trainers did their appeals? That really sucks, because now I can't see how well each trainer supposedly fared during that section. Was Musashi's fireworks display good enough of earning a perfect 30? I'll never know. This better not be a trait of all Kantou contests. Sure, it's a minor complaint, but with the Battle Frontier arc sucking enough as it is, every small grain of salt added to the wound just makes it sting worse and worse, even if slightly. Meh, what's it matter? The cap on the salt shaker already fell off when that Zenigame suddenly turned uber in a matter of two episodes. Can it get any worse? Maybe.... if Juptor doesn't evolve while it's still with Satoshi, that'd be equivalent to a one-pound bag of salt suddenly being dropped from an overhead plane and, coincidentally, landing on the wound.

    Quote Originally Posted by jolteonjak
    Dude, relax...its a freakin TV show. I'd like to see you try finding me. I'll just pretend that you're some pre-pubescent kid with ADHD, and you haven't had your ritalin yet. I'm sorry you feel so much hatred for May's Squirtle, or I'm sorry you feel so much love towards Harley. Think about it (do you really do that?), if Harley is such the villian you want him to be, then he will never win a contest that May is in. Look at Jessie. She's a villian, and she never wins even though a lot of us want her to (myself included).
    You really a dumba**, aren't ya? If I had ADHD, would I really be focused enough to write my previus post as long as I did? I'm hardly a pre-pubsecent kid, either, in fact, I'm most likely older than you by a few years. And the difference between Musashi and Harley is that Harley's being played up to be one of Haruka's main rivals. Also, Harley wasn't reduced to comic-relief after his first or second loss, he still acts very serious and threatening. And Haruka can lose contests, like she did to Shuu and Tsukiko in the past, so why the hell can't she lose against Harley?

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  6. #106
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    And Haruka can lose contests, like she did to Shuu and Tsukiko in the past, so why the hell can't she lose against Harley?
    Cause he sucks. He does nothing but cheat.

  7. #107
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    I know an Alfonso who's not going to be very happy when he reads that. ;/
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  8. #108
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    He doesn't actually cheat. He simply tries to manipulate his opponents. They don't have to fall for it and should have the brains to see through his schemes. Though because May can pull a magical win out of her rear on command at this point she can be an idiot and still come out ahead.

    Some people don't think it's funny that Exit 69 gets off on Big Beaver.

  9. #109
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    Well we know Harley was good enough to win at least 5 contests since he was in the Grand Festival.

    It seems that he's only unlucky with May. I mean he IS a decent coordinator is he not? He wouldn't be able to get 5 ribbons if he wasn't.

  10. #110
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    His Pokemon also seem to become dummies for May's Pokemon to test their new attacks on.

    Some people don't think it's funny that Exit 69 gets off on Big Beaver.

  11. #111
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    Harley is obviously pretty good, but May is better. And he does seem a bit short-sighted in that he seems to neglect his battling skills in favour of figuring out new ways to cheat. And yes, Al, what Harley does is CHEATING. Excusing him by saying, "well, May doesn't have to fall for it!" is like saying that if you leave your house unlocked and you get robbed, then the burglar who robbed you wasn't really stealing. Just because the victim's a dumb*ss doesn't exonerate the aggressor.

    I'm still fairly astonished, incidentally, that so many people who profess to loathe the BF saga and do nothing but whine and complain over the stupidest things every week are still watching the show, let alone participating in the fandom. Are they masochists or something? Colour me baffled.

    And by stupidest things, I'm not talking about Squirtle's unrealistic win. Getting annoyed over that is understandable. (Well. Annoyance, yes. Blind screaming fury, not so much. That just makes me want to hand out prozac.) However, throwing a hissy fit because Squirtle's Ice Beam worked OK in the first episode and turned shaky in the second is deserving of a "NOBODY GIVES A SH*T" newsflash. Ditto the Harley-fans (of which I freely include myself) sulking because their favourite lost again. Duh, he's the villain, that's his lot in life. If he wins, that equals a sad ending, which on Pokemon = big no no. I do think it's possible May will lose to him once before the Grand Festival; however, that will only happen if there is another, good character in the contest to beat him straight afterwards. (My ideal scenario: May loses to Harley, who loses to Drew. Eeeeeeeee.)
    Last edited by Jo-Jo; 26th September 2005 at 4:21 AM.
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  12. #112
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    we enjoy the franchise, I guess it's just natural that we'd enjoy an anime that features our favorite monsters from a hit video game. Though, the monsters aren't everything, and on the side, we keep hoping against hope that the storyline could be a touch better, among other things like proper characterization of the interesting persons (and Pokemon) we've been introduced to (hell, the monster showcasings themselves, either battling or otherwise, are weak on several occasions, so at the very least, they could be a bit better). The anime can actually get better at times, if the beginning of Advanced Generation is any indication, and I guess some of us just don't want to keep out of touch with whatever developments occur while the anime's in its low-points. I mean, no doubt some people who started with Advanced Generation were confused with what happened back in Jouto, maybe even wondering why Satoshi went to Houen or, if they caught the last few Jouto episodes, wonder why he's suddenly following Houou around. Besides, even when the anime's in its low points, it still delivers a few laughs (times like that, we should actually be thankful for Rocket Dan), and a few exciting battles (the recent Juptor vs. Iwark battle), so we keep watching. Like I said, this episode was great except for the displeasing outcome of it all, and if Harley had actually won, and/or this and the previous episode were a bit more believable with how Zenigame was developing, I'd go as far as to say it's my favorite episode in the Battle Frontier yet (which, truthfully, isn't much of an accomplishment, considering what we've got so far).
    Last edited by Yamato-san; 26th September 2005 at 7:59 AM.

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  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jo-Jo
    Harley is obviously pretty good, but May is better. And he does seem a bit short-sighted in that he seems to neglect his battling skills in favour of figuring out new ways to cheat. And yes, Al, what Harley does is CHEATING. Excusing him by saying, "well, May doesn't have to fall for it!" is like saying that if you leave your house unlocked and you get robbed, then the burglar who robbed you wasn't really stealing. Just because the victim's a dumb*ss doesn't exonerate the aggressor.
    Cheating =/= Stealing genious. And no he doesn't cheat. It'd called icing your opponent which has been a strategy since there have been games. Saying that he cheated is like saying saying calling a time before a field goal is cheating or bluffing in poker is cheating.
    I'm still fairly astonished, incidentally, that so many people who profess to loathe the BF saga and do nothing but whine and complain over the stupidest things every week are still watching the show, let alone participating in the fandom. Are they masochists or something? Colour me baffled.
    We're hoping something intellegent will happen. We're hoping to see old faces since they went back to Kanto. We're hoping the Kanto magic will return. We got one of the better battles of AG at the battle factory and then horrible fillers capped by a sickening conest. However, we are dedicated fans.
    And by stupidest things, I'm not talking about Squirtle's unrealistic win. Getting annoyed over that is understandable. (Well. Annoyance, yes. Blind screaming fury, not so much. That just makes me want to hand out prozac.) However, throwing a hissy fit because Squirtle's Ice Beam worked OK in the first episode and turned shaky in the second is deserving of a "NOBODY GIVES A SH*T" newsflash. Ditto the Harley-fans (of which I freely include myself) sulking because their favourite lost again. Duh, he's the villain, that's his lot in life. If he wins, that equals a sad ending, which on Pokemon = big no no. I do think it's possible May will lose to him once before the Grand Festival; however, that will only happen if there is another, good character in the contest to beat him straight afterwards. (My ideal scenario: May loses to Harley, who loses to Drew. Eeeeeeeee.)
    *Smacks Jo-Jo with a giant paper fan again* Get off your high horse. We want a sad ending. Also will the world split in two if Harley wins? Chances are it won't. So May loses a contest. Ash got shrunk to the size of a doll for losing a gym battle. What's Harley going to do to May?

    Some people don't think it's funny that Exit 69 gets off on Big Beaver.

  14. #114
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    Cheating does, however, indicate that he might not have the skills to be a good coordinator, despite the evolutionary level of his pokemon. It also is beginning to make me wonder just how Harley managed to get five ribbons in the first place. Don't forget that almost half of Ash's Kanto badges were "pity" badges. Harley may have done some underhanded, but still legal, things to get some of his five ribbons for the Hoenn Grand Festival. That could explain why a low level Squirtle could have defeated a second stage pokemon.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mew2
    Cheating does, however, indicate that he might not have the skills to be a good coordinator...
    Good point.

    How many times in the anime did we see ash make impossible wins (i.e. pikachu vs. marowak or charmander vs. golem) ? It's the same with May. If Ash can win like that, then why can't May?

    And if Harley can trick May into missing the deadline for registration (correct?), he can do the same with other trainers. His appeal skills are great, but his battling is something left to be desired. I'm all for Harley winning once, mind you. It just makes sense to see him win a ribbon sometime.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Big_Al
    Ash got shrunk to the size of a doll for losing a gym battle. What's Harley going to do to May?
    hahaha, good point.

  16. #116
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    Okay, let's look at the May vs. Harley battle. Ariados didn't use any attacks. True. But that's not the point, since May was losing a hell of a lot of points without Ariados even firing off one actual attack... simply using it's webbing and String Shot to grab and smack Squirtle around the hall was doing pretty damn well, and nearly depleted all of May's Contest Bar.

    Then she used an attack which FROOZE Ariados solid and somehow iced up ALL the webbing. What in the blue blazes is up with that? Totally BS considering that Ice Beam never hit the webs... but since it did according to the scriptwriters, Ariados couldn't regain it's grip and ended up losing. Had the scriptwriters actually stuck to the psyhics of it all, Ariados could have simply fired a shot up to the roof and regained it's composture.

    Instead, Squirtle hits it with a Tackle attack, which combined with the power of the fall, which May or Squirtle had no power over, KOed it.

    Total. F*cking. Bulls*it. And I don't care if you people think I'm a whiny Harley6 fanboy. I've had it up to HERE with all the annoying pre-teen Ash and May fanboys/girls moaning on about crap all the damned time, and about how Ash never gets Primeape back, or so other BS. Now it's my turn.

  17. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Big Al
    Cheating =/= Stealing genious.
    That whooshing noise was the sound of the point flying over your head.

    And no he doesn't cheat. It'd called icing your opponent which has been a strategy since there have been games. Saying that he cheated is like saying saying calling a time before a field goal is cheating or bluffing in poker is cheating.
    No, he cheats. He played an embarrassing story in the middle of a battle to distract May so Cacturne could land a hit on Bulbasaur. I'm sure if the judges had realised where the recording was coming from, he would have been penalised. At Saffron, he lied to May to try and stop her being able to enter the contest. (As a side note, Lilian also cheated by sneaking May in, so it's not just the bad guys who do it.) I suppose you could say that giving her false information and advice on multiple occasions merely constitutes "icing" her rather than out and out cheating, but it's still very underhanded and unsportsmanlike, and good characters like Max, Ash, Brock and Drew are rightfully outraged on May's behalf whenever Harley does it.

    *Smacks Jo-Jo with a giant paper fan again* Get off your high horse. We want a sad ending.
    Tough. You're not getting one. Deal with it.

    Also will the world split in two if Harley wins? Chances are it won't.
    Harley winning goes against the tone of the show. Kvetching because the anime is not conforming to your exact, in this case unrealistic, demands is not a legitimate complaint.

    So May loses a contest. Ash got shrunk to the size of a doll for losing a gym battle. What's Harley going to do to May?
    Ash got shrunk to the size of a doll and then came back and won the badge. May can't do that; if she loses a contest, she's lost and has to move on. It's alright for her to lose if it's against people like Drew or Savannah, people she's friends with, because they aren't villains and can be relied upon not to rub it in her face afterwards (well... I guess Drew might a little bit. ). Which is why the only way I think Harley will ever beat May is if he doesn't go on to win the whole contest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mew2
    Cheating does, however, indicate that he might not have the skills to be a good coordinator, despite the evolutionary level of his pokemon. It also is beginning to make me wonder just how Harley managed to get five ribbons in the first place.
    That's an excellent question. I think that Harley is the same kind of co-ordinator as Jessie: very imaginative and creative, which lets him score high on appeals, but gets too bogged down trying to sabotage his opponents and thus neglects his own battling skills, which costs him in the final rounds. Since he's a villain, it's safe to say he's unlikely to ever learn from this mistake. He strikes me as someone who always blames his opponents for his losses, never himself.

    Don't forget that almost half of Ash's Kanto badges were "pity" badges. Harley may have done some underhanded, but still legal, things to get some of his five ribbons for the Hoenn Grand Festival. That could explain why a low level Squirtle could have defeated a second stage pokemon.
    I like to think that Harley got the rest of his ribbons, if not in an entirely legal way, than at least more legally than his efforts against May. But maybe I’m biased.

    We do know for a fact, though, that Ariados is a recently-caught Pokemon, which evens the playing field between it and Squirtle a little bit. And May has now proven twice that she's a better battler than Harley, and that she is capable of thinking fast and getting out of a sticky situation.
    Last edited by Jo-Jo; 27th September 2005 at 5:59 AM.
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  18. #118
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    Sorry for holding the anime to the standards it met in the beginning.

    Oh noes Harley's making fun of May because he beat her. It beating being turned into a living action figure.

    Some people don't think it's funny that Exit 69 gets off on Big Beaver.

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    Ah, yes, how well I remember what things were like at the beginning of the anime, when the bad guys triumphed over the heroes in every episode... oh, wait...
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  20. #120
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    Jo-Jo, you still contradicted yourself by talking about how Shuu would rub it in her face when he wins, but for whatever reason, it can't be the same for Harley. Anyway, Harley is indeed a good battler. Aside from doing good against Haruka until the very last moment of his matches with her, he knows about Musashi's Sounansu. The anime has shown time and time again that not everyone seems to know about every Pokemon that exists in the world, so Harley would have to have been doing his homework to not only know what Sounansu is, but to also know that it doesn't do any direct damage and requires the opponent to act first so that its countering skills can take effect. He also knew how to trick Haruka through knowledge of her own Pokemon, the skills her Pokemon possess (Eneko's Assist), as well as the opponent's Pokemon (the Ametama in his debut episode).

    Also, all these people commenting that Harley got all his ribbons by cheating seem pretty unjustifiable. He only picks on Haruka, and likely some others, because she made his list of enemies, which she did after calling Harley's Noctus scary and disgusting him with her use of slang (or have you forgotten why he calls her "Kamo-chan"?). Surely, not every contest hall he went to had someone from his list, and even so, he'd only be tricking one person in the contest hall and still making mincemeat of the several other battling competitors (as the contests featuring him have shown, he managed to make it to the finals to face against Haruka, supposedly not interacting with those other competitors at all). And I have to agree with The Big Al's comment on "icing" the opponent. As far as I know, everything Harley has done is perfectly acceptable within the boundaries of contest rules. He may tell Haruka false info, but it's all Haruka's choice whether to follow it or not (it'd be a different case if he were to, say, jump Haruka, tie her up, and throw her in a broom closet). And he was obviously relying on his own skills, fair and square, inside the battles and appeals themselves. About the only under-handed thing he's ever done on the stage was take out a recording of Masato telling an embarassing story about Haruka, and there is no rule against competitors verbally shocking their opponents to throw them off, now is there?
    Last edited by Yamato-san; 27th September 2005 at 7:22 AM.

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  21. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jo-Jo
    Ah, yes, how well I remember what things were like at the beginning of the anime, when the bad guys triumphed over the heroes in every episode... oh, wait...
    It still doesn't get around the fact that baby squirtle destroyed the competition on its first try - without much of a build up for its training.

  22. #122
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    The villians didn't win every episode but sometimes Ash and company didn't finish on top like they ALWAYS do nowadays.

    And I'd hate to play by your rules Jo-Jo because it takes the mind games out of it.

    Some people don't think it's funny that Exit 69 gets off on Big Beaver.

  23. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yamato-san
    Jo-Jo, you still contradicted yourself by talking about how Shuu would rub it in her face when he wins, but for whatever reason, it can't be the same for Harley.
    The Drew comment was a joke. Drew has never actually lorded it over May on either of the occasions when he did better in a contest than she did. And even if he were to act a little smug after beating her, this would not push the episode into "sad ending" territory, because Drew is May's friend and we know after watching them interact for three seasons that their exchanges are often comedic and rarely truly malicious.

    Anyway, Harley is indeed a good battler. Aside from doing good against Haruka until the very last moment of his matches with her, he knows about Musashi's Sounansu. The anime has shown time and time again that not everyone seems to know about every Pokemon that exists in the world, so Harley would have to have been doing his homework to not only know what Sounansu is, but to also know that it doesn't do any direct damage and requires the opponent to act first so that its countering skills can take effect. He also knew how to trick Haruka through knowledge of her own Pokemon, the skills her Pokemon possess (Eneko's Assist), as well as the opponent's Pokemon (the Ametama in his debut episode).
    Agreed, which ties into what I said before about Harley being imaginative and crafty. He is clearly willing to expend a lot of time and energy researching his opponents, and seems to be an expert in using all possible information to his advantage. But the fact that May beat him both times they faced off prior to the Saffron contest suggests that no matter how good he is in the battle arena, she is better.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Big Al
    The villians didn't win every episode but sometimes Ash and company didn't finish on top like they ALWAYS do nowadays.
    Examples?

    And I'd hate to play by your rules Jo-Jo because it takes the mind games out of it.
    What, you mean the 'rules' of not expecting the tone of the anime to suddenly take a drastic shift away from what it's been like ever since the beginning?
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  24. #124
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    Are you talking about AG (in which you're correct). Or the entire Pokemon saga (in which you're dead wrong). Seriously, at least when they did win they made it look believable.

    And they didn't always win and some episodes like in the St. Anne and Sabrina Sagas they ended on an uncertain note. Not sad but uncertain. (Ash and company were declared dead which could be considered sad.) Granted everything turned out in the end but it took time instead the crisis being cleared up in one episode.

    And I was talking about your rules of battling in which tricking your opponent because they're an idiot is cheating. The mind games are half the fun.

    Some people don't think it's funny that Exit 69 gets off on Big Beaver.

  25. #125
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    What!? a squirtle beating an Ariados!?

    Come on, the contests are getting rubbish...its impossible!!

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